Jasc Paint Shop Pro 10 Cracked Server

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Web, compared to downloading an email from your server, you need to. 'cracked' or >otherwise illegal copies (key generators, etc.) I thought it was suppose to be freeware now? Paint Shop Pro 5 is now free, PB, 9/20/02 2:53 PM. Emailed JASC and asked if they intend to make it available as a download.

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' schreef: From their website: [quote] PC Format gives away Paint Shop Pro An exclusive, fully working version of Paint Shop Pro 5 is being given away free with issue 140 of PC Format. Snip promo speak.] You need to register your copy online, click here: [/quote] No restrictions? So what's this: - only available to *buyers* of the magazine (costs almost 10 EUR here) (copying & giving it away is _not_ allowed) - you need to register (give away name, email address, maybe more?) -- JanC 'Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving.'

RFC 1958 - Architectural Principles of the Internet - section 3.9 David_B 20.09.02 10:03. On Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:43:34 GMT, JanC wrote: >>No restrictions? So what's this: >- only available to *buyers* of the magazine (costs almost 10 EUR here) It may feature as a download from the PC Format site in the future; this has happened before. And, yes, the magazine costs; in theory, the software's free (though I'd acknowledge that this is something of a moot point).

>(copying & giving it away is _not_ allowed) Not sure on this; I'll have a look at the EULA. >- you need to register (give away name, email address, maybe more?) A name and an email address; neither has to be real. As a general principle on free software; IIRC, this group regularly used to feature the freebies that were given away with magazines (PC Plus in particular). I'd assumed the same principle would apply with this release. Sorry if I was mistaken.

Lavish 20.09.02 09:43. Henk de Jong wrote in news:m7Hi9.3575$: >' schreef in >: >>>Just to let you know. >>>>The full version of PSP 5 has been included with the October edition >>of PC Format Magazine in the UK. No restrictions, nags or timeouts. >>a nice program. >>>Can you provide all the members of this NG with a link where this >program can be downloaded? If not, than it is not freeware, and off >topic here.

Yes please i'ld like a link to the program. If you can then please send me the Magazine (or even the CD will do) at your cost 'cos i am not going to a penny for it.

FYI i live in India. After all you call it freeware.

I call it restrictedware If you are thinking of emailing it to me then please forget it. I have no enthusiasm for downloading the huge file on a 33.6 dialup connection.... Else shut up about PSP 5 being freeware Lavish Alastair Smeaton 20.09.02 10:32. On Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:43:08 +0000 (UTC), Lavish wrote: >>Yes please i'ld like a link to the program. If you can then please send me the Magazine (or even the CD will do) >at your cost 'cos i am not going to a penny for it.

FYI i live in >India. After all you call it freeware. I call it restrictedware >If you are thinking of emailing it to me then please forget it.

I have no >enthusiasm for downloading the huge file on a 33.6 dialup connection.. Maybe some fair points above, but this last point is bloody ludicrous. The fact that you only have a 33.6 connection is your problem - or are you going to limit your definition of freeware to something which will be delivered to your door for free, or which will pay your isp or online charges. And if you think it takes less time to download thru a link on the web, compared to downloading an email from your server, you need to learn a litle more before you post in such aggressive terms.

Plenty of freeware is large in size - some people don't want that for a variety of reasons (we call these small programmes 'boomer-sized' ):-). >Else shut up about PSP 5 being freeware While I agree it is not freeware, my guess would be that some people will be nterested in this news - especially as it may well be available for general download (without buying the disk) at some stage soon. No need for your tone at all, IMO >>Lavish Alastair Smeaton Henk de Jong 20.09.02 10:27. Alastair Smeaton schreef: >And if you think it takes less time to download thru a link on the >web, compared to downloading an email from your server, you need to >learn a litle more before you post in such aggressive terms. The MIME-Base64 or UUencode used for mailing binaries adds about 40% to the size, so downloading from the web is significantly faster than downloading it as a mail.

-- JanC 'Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving.' RFC 1958 - Architectural Principles of the Internet - section 3.9 point blank 20.09.02 10:08. On Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:59:59 GMT, JanC wrote: >Alastair Smeaton schreef: >>>And if you think it takes less time to download thru a link on the >>web, compared to downloading an email from your server, you need to >>learn a litle more before you post in such aggressive terms. >>The MIME-Base64 or UUencode used for mailing binaries adds about 40% to the >size, so downloading from the web is significantly faster than downloading >it as a mail. Good point - new to me - thanks. Even so - both would still take a while at 33.6 - I just felt the poster I replied to was asking a bit much cheers Alastair Smeaton Snapper 20.09.02 12:21. Henk de Jong wrote in message news:m7Hi9.3522@zwoll1.home.nl.

>' schreef in >: >>>Just to let you know. >>>>The full version of PSP 5 has been included with the October edition >>of PC Format Magazine in the UK. No restrictions, nags or timeouts. >>a nice program.

>>>>>>Can you provide all the members of this NG with a link where this program >can be downloaded? If not, than it is not freeware, and off topic here. If you had a brain in your empty head, instead of whinging you could enter: psp5.zip into which would give you several promising looking download URLs, including: Now, I haven't downloaded it myself, so if it's not an English version don't blame me. But if I wanted the program I'd certainly consider it worth taking a chance on the download. Snapper Jim Allison 20.09.02 13:32.

Snapper wrote: >>If you had a brain in your empty head, instead of whinging you could >enter: >psp5.zip >into which would give you several promising looking >download URLs, including: >aint >_shop_pro/ >Now, I haven't downloaded it myself, so if it's not an English >version don't blame me. But if I wanted the program I'd certainly >consider it worth taking a chance on the download. Yep, it's German. The two English links that worked were cracked.we're into Warez territory.

-- Jim Allison Usable Freeware - John Picken 20.09.02 13:54. On Fri, 20 Sep 2002 22:30:36 +0100, 'Snapper' wrote. I thought it was suppose to be freeware now? But I suspect this is a special licensed version, as they have distributed in the past PSP versions. I.e., some features are missing, such as.gif and.tif compression, for which royalties are due to Unisys.

There may be other restrictions as to distribution in the licensed version, which may require a thorough read of the license agreement. - return address is altered slightly to reduce spam.

Point blank 20.09.02 17:58. In article, 'david- ' says. Got the magazine and installed psp5. Great program. It is the full package, with tutorials etc included.

PC Format magazine has put it on the CD as a password protected self-extracting zip file. You need to look up their web site, which asks for your name and e-mail address, to get the password. There is also a box you can check or uncheck depending on whether you want information about special offers etc.

When you get the password for the zip file, it extracts to your windows temp directory (all 193mb of it) and from there you run the psp install program. A minimum psp install actually only takes up about 10mb. Then you delete the stuff in the temp directory and you're ready to go. The program itself does not require any type of password to install or run.

I guess PC Format magazine has done this so they can contact users with special offers etc - but you can decline these by unchecking the box on the web site. The password does not appear to have anything to do with psp. OK, you have to pay for the magazine but if you are using dial-up connection it seems, to me at least, an easier option than a lengthy download. Sietse Fliege 20.09.02 20:21.

Mike Echo wrote: Mike, I shall restore the message that you replied to: >Sietse Fliege wrote: >>point blank wrote: >>>>>OK, you have to pay for the magazine but if you are using dial-up >>>connection it seems, to me at least, an easier option than a >>>lengthy download. >>>>You *cannot download* this version, only *buy* it with the magazine. >>>>It is therefor not freeware and off-topic. You see, the thing is: point blank told a lie, because: you do not have the choice between downloading the freeware version or buying it with the magazine, as you cannot download it. This is crucial! If you could download the freeware version, the magazine version would not be off topic.

My point was: do not lie about it. Having made that point I could not be silent about the second point: (As you cannot download it, only buy it with the magazine): Paint Shop Pro therefore is not freeware and off topic.

I agree, these threads could be very short, indeed non existent. People only have to stay on topic. Certainly, if they lie, they should be corrected, don't you think? -- Regards, Sietse Fliege Blinky the Shark 20.09.02 22:41.

In article, REPLACE.invalid.WITH.nl@sf.slownet.invalid says. >Mike, I shall restore the message that you replied to: I just happened to choose follow up on your particular message in order to make a general point. I was not meaning to do any 'creative editing' of your post, just trying to give an overall observation/opinion. I meant no offence, believe me. >You see, the thing is: point blank told a lie, because: Maybe he made an honest error?

There is a difference between lying and making a mistake unintentionally. >Having made that point I could not be silent about the second point: >(As you cannot download it, only buy it with the magazine): >Paint Shop Pro therefore is not freeware and off topic. Yes, but I'm sure a lot of people would gladly buy the magazine in order to get their 'free' software. If the OP had said that PSP was available in a magazine but did not mention the word 'freeware' then none of this would have happened.

One small word makes a big difference, huh?:-) >I agree, these threads could be very short, indeed non existent. >People only have to stay on topic. Yep, it would be nice if they did. >Certainly, if they lie, they should be corrected, don't you think?

I just think we should be a bit more forgiving of people unless they deliberately set out to mislead others. Blinky the Shark 21.09.02 00:32. Mike Echo wrote: >Yes, but I'm sure a lot of people would gladly buy the magazine in >order to get their 'free' software. If the OP had said that PSP was >available in a magazine but did not mention the word 'freeware' then >none of this would have happened.

One small word makes a big >difference, huh?:-) No, it doesn't. As CDware-not-also-available-for-download, it isn't freeware, and your little scheme no more excuses this than if one tried to sell MS Word in here *by simply not saying 'freeware'*, as you are suggesting. Not *saying* 'freeware' doesn't change that fact at all -- it's still nonfreeware in a freeware group. -- Blinky Blinky the Shark 21.09.02 02:52. ' wrote in message news:accmou8g0cnq7g62b47vv41rp6le90ll02@4ax.com.

>Just to let you know. >>The full version of PSP 5 has been included with the October edition >of PC Format Magazine in the UK. No restrictions, nags or timeouts.

>a nice program. Boy this has stirred up a right can of worms!:-) Anyway I was glad of the post and am off to get the magazine however I emailed JASC and asked if they intend to make it available as a download. Will let you all know what they say. Rhexis 21.09.02 03:55. Well: 'It's good to have feedback' is a catch-phrase in my line of work. But hopefully I can put this one to bed.

Firstly, back to what I said. Mike Echo said; >If the OP had said that PSP was available in a magazine but did not mention the word 'freeware' then none of this would have happened. Sorry Mike, because your response was generally supportive, but I didn't mention the word.

I said it was free, not freeware, and the distinction was deliberately made. Secondly, my reasons for posting: As I said in a previous post, other free, ex-commercial programs have featured quite heavily here in the past - though I now realise that these were probably downloadable from the PC Plus site. A couple of years ago, I posted a heads-up to a CD-based special version of PSP 4 here without reaction. And more recently I've seen, for instance, Poser 3 and Maya LE flagged up - Poser available on CD only, and Maya LE a huge download and crippled almost beyond use.

Maya got some response, but Poser got by unchallenged, as far as I remember. That's why I posted the news here. I acknowledge now that this was a mistake, and I apologise; but I don't think the post deserved the flak it got. REMbr.@inu.net 21.09.02 05:24.

>No, it doesn't. As >CDware-not-also-available-for-download, it isn't freeware, and your >little scheme no more excuses this than if one tried to sell MS Word in >here *by simply not saying 'freeware'*, as you are suggesting. Not >*saying* 'freeware' doesn't change that fact at all -- it's still >nonfreeware in a freeware group. But you actually bought the retail version. Others bought a magazine and got the great program to boot.

These are somehow the same? -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- Paul Batchie 21.09.02 05:52.

>I'm not sure it was. I care less about the technical definitions >(plural intended) of freeware than about the usefulness of a >post.

To some, at least, the magazine offer will in fact amount >to freeware. And possibly prod other magazines to do the same in other countries.

The post had merit. A free copy of PSP is one of the last things I would have guessed. We were informed, even if the information irritated some. That's the breaks. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!

-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- Vic Dura 21.09.02 06:33. On Fri, 20 Sep 2002 18:32:21 +0100, RE: Re: Paint Shop Pro 5 is now free Alastair Smeaton wrote: >>Ezdrummer Authorization Keygen on this page. Yes please i'ld like a link to the program. If you can then please send me the Magazine (or even the CD will do) >>at your cost 'cos i am not going to a penny for it.

FYI i live in >>India. After all you call it freeware. I call it restrictedware >>If you are thinking of emailing it to me then please forget it. I have no >>enthusiasm for downloading the huge file on a 33.6 dialup connection.

>>Maybe some fair points above, but this last point is bloody ludicrous. >The fact that you only have a 33.6 connection is your problem - or are >you going to limit your definition of freeware to something which will >be delivered to your door for free, or which will pay your isp or >online charges. That seems to be the be what he is saying. Only it's not his definition of freeware that he wants to limit, it *our* definition that he wants to limit; hence his objection to its mention.

He doesn't want to us to ignore it because it doesn't fit our needs. He wants us to ignore it because it doesn't fit his needs.

A typical overbearing, self-rightous, zealot attitude. -- Performing Arts in the Shoals Area Shoals Symphony Orchestra: Opera South: John Corliss 21.09.02 07:18. 168689921 wrote: >Sietse Fliege wrote: >>>You can wait a year and then version 5 still will not be freeware. >>But it may well be downloadable from one of the Futurenet websites, most >likely where they already have some old cover >gifts.

Mind you some cover gifts have never been uploaded like >Macromedia Dreamweaver 1.0 which was give aways with netmag believe it >or not. A more direct link is: Thanks for the tip! Looks like some good stuff there. -- Regards from John Corliss People (eg. Andy Mabbett) whose messages to alt.comp.freeware I am filtering out and cannot see: alt.comp.freeware F.A.Q.: My 'favorite freeware' page: Harvey V 21.09.02 07:22.

168689921 wrote: >Henk de Jong wrote: >>>Can you provide all the members of this NG with a link where this >>program can be downloaded? If not, than it is not freeware, and off >>topic here. >>So as soon as soon as I'd uploaded it to an ftp site and posted the >details it would be freeware? Are you sure that's the definition you >want to stick with Henk? CDWare is only freeware if you can either dowload it as such on the internet or contact the magazine (via email) and have them send you the CD, no shipping and handling charges. Otherwise and in spite of the magazine saying that the CD is 'free', it costs money and is not available to everybody.

These two factors mean that the CDWare would not be freeware. 'CDWare - this is software that is included on CDs that come with magazines. If the software is freeware that is freely downloadable from the internet, then it is okay to recommend it as a solution to a software need. A link to the download site should be provided when recommending it as a software solution.

If there is no download site available, then it should not be recommended as a solution to a software need in alt.comp.freeware for two reasons: first, you MUST purchase the magazine to obtain the CD. Secondly, such software on most 'free' CDs usually may not be freely distributed according to the EULA (end user licensing agreement.)' -- Regards from John Corliss People (eg. Andy Mabbett) whose messages to alt.comp.freeware I am filtering out and cannot see: alt.comp.freeware F.A.Q.: My 'favorite freeware' page: John Corliss 21.09.02 07:32. Paul Batchie wrote: Paul, the group has voted on this exact issue and the following is the majority opinion: 'CDWare - this is software that is included on CDs that come with magazines.

If the software is freeware that is freely downloadable from the internet, then it is okay to recommend it as a solution to a software need. A link to the download site should be provided when recommending it as a software solution. If there is no download site available, then it should not be recommended as a solution to a software need in alt.comp.freeware for two reasons: first, you MUST purchase the magazine to obtain the CD. Secondly, such software on most 'free' CDs usually may not be freely distributed according to the EULA (end user licensing agreement.)' Allowing the dillution of the definition of freeware does this group a disservice by cluttering it up with off topic threads. If this process is allowed to go unchecked, eventually the group will become like what I have seen other groups turn into: totally nothing about freeware in it.

Some people can't seem to grasp this notion and object to 'being told what to say or do', but they are missing the point. Being as this is an unmoderated group, it is up to the regulars to do what they can to make sure the group stays on-topic.

-- Regards from John Corliss People (eg. Andy Mabbett) whose messages to alt.comp.freeware I am filtering out and cannot see: alt.comp.freeware F.A.Q.: My 'favorite freeware' page: Tiger 21.09.02 08:05. Wrote in: >>>No, it doesn't.

As >>CDware-not-also-available-for-download, it isn't freeware, and >>your little scheme no more excuses this than if one tried to sell >>MS Word in here *by simply not saying 'freeware'*, as you are >>suggesting. Not *saying* 'freeware' doesn't change that fact at >>all -- it's still nonfreeware in a freeware group. >>But you actually bought the retail version. Others bought a >magazine and got the great program to boot.

>>These are somehow the same? >As I said, some people are too stupid to be allowed internet access.

-- Tiger *Remove yourclothes. To reply via email Mike Echo 21.09.02 08:08.

In article, david- says. >Mike Echo said; >>>If the OP had said that PSP was available in a magazine but did not >>mention the word 'freeware' then none of this would have happened. >Sorry Mike, because your response was generally supportive, but I >didn't mention the word. I said it was free, not freeware, and the >distinction was deliberately made. My apologies.

I didn't see the original post and incorrectly assumed you must have used the word seeing as how so many people have their undies in knots.:-) >That's why I posted the news here. I acknowledge now that this was a >mistake, and I apologise; but I don't think the post deserved the flak >it got. I really don't think you did any long-term harm.;-) As 168689921 put it so succinctly (I wish I had thought of this): >But not all off topic posts are valueless. I never did suggest the prog was freeware and agree that quite a few people might get some value from your post. John Corliss 21.09.02 08:12. Harvey V wrote: >Blinky the Shark wrote: >>168689921 wrote: >>>Sietse Fliege wrote: >>>>You cannot download this version, only buy it with the magazine.

>>>>It is off-topic. >>>>But not all off topic posts are valueless. >-snip- >>But it still does not belong here. >>Is this not why the header thingie [OT] was invented? Yes, but it applies mostly to non-software discussion (which should be minimized in any event.) -- Regards from John Corliss People (eg. Andy Mabbett) whose messages to alt.comp.freeware I am filtering out and cannot see: alt.comp.freeware F.A.Q.: My 'favorite freeware' page: Mike Echo 21.09.02 08:13.

In article, no.spam@box.invalid says. >>Yes, but I'm sure a lot of people would gladly buy the magazine in >>order to get their 'free' software. If the OP had said that PSP was >>available in a magazine but did not mention the word 'freeware' then >>none of this would have happened. One small word makes a big >>difference, huh?:-) >>No, it doesn't. It's a new concept for me.:-) >As CDware-not-also-available-for-download, it isn't freeware, I never said it was freeware. I agree it isn't but just think many people here go overboard in policing OT posts, especially if the OP was only trying to help.

>and your >little scheme no more excuses this than if one tried to sell MS Word in >here *by simply not saying 'freeware'*, as you are suggesting. Not >*saying* 'freeware' doesn't change that fact at all -- it's still >nonfreeware in a freeware group. Lighten up, Blinky. I'm sure there are more important things to worry about.;-) Henk de Jong 21.09.02 08:08. 168689921 schreef in: >'Sietse Fliege' wrote in >news:amgsph$ad8$: >>>You can wait a year and then version 5 still will not be freeware.

>>But it may well be downloadable from one of the Futurenet websites, most >likely where they already have some old cover >gifts. Mind you some cover gifts have never been uploaded like >Macromedia Dreamweaver 1.0 which was give aways with netmag believe it >or not. >Can you please direct me to the download link of Dreamweaver? I need that thing very bad.

-- Henk de Jong The Netherlands (remove NOSPAM) 'Links to Freeware' Andy Mabbett 21.09.02 08:21. In message, John Corliss writes >Paul, the group has voted on this exact issue and the following is the >majority opinion: Though you may wish - and, indeed, should feel free - to disregard that 'vote', since it was conducted not by a neutral third party, but by someone with a very partisan interest, and with no verification of 'voters' identity. In summary: it was a joke. >'CDWare - this is software that is included on CDs that come with >magazines.

If the software is freeware that is freely downloadable from >the internet, then it is okay to recommend it as a solution to a >software need. A link to the download site should be provided when >recommending it as a software solution. If there is no download site >available, then it should not be recommended as a solution to a >software need in alt.comp.freeware for two reasons: first, you MUST >purchase the magazine to obtain the CD. Secondly, such software on most >'free' CDs usually may not be freely distributed according to the EULA >(end user licensing agreement.)' There is, of course, a fatal flaw in that statement. It isn't true, as has been explained to Corliss previously. >Allowing the dillution of the definition of freeware does this group a >disservice by cluttering it up with off topic threads.

If this process >is allowed to go unchecked, eventually the group will become like what >I have seen other groups turn into: totally nothing about freeware in it. So, Corliss thinks we should avoid off- topic threads. Except wen they're about him, his drinking, his finds' holidays and his guns and bike, of course.

>Some people can't seem to grasp this notion and object to 'being >told what to say or do', but they are missing the point. Being as this >is an unmoderated group, it is up to the regulars to do what they can >to make sure the group stays on-topic. 'End of Usenet Predicted; film at eleven'. -- Andy Mabbett Sign Amnesty International's petition - stop the USA from violating International Law by obtaining war crime impunity agreements: Andy Mabbett 21.09.02 08:28. In message, John Corliss writes >Yes, but it applies mostly to non-software discussion (which should be >minimized in any event.) Oh, look, everybody! Corliss has just given birth to a new rule!

Should we send cards? Smoke cigars? I trust that mother and baby are well. BTW, could someone direct me to details of the vote on this one, I seem to have missed, it. -- Andy Mabbett Sign Amnesty International's petition - stop the USA from violating International Law by obtaining war crime impunity agreements: REMbr.@inu.net 21.09.02 08:43. >>>No, it doesn't. As >>>CDware-not-also-available-for-download, it isn't freeware, and >>>your little scheme no more excuses this than if one tried to sell >>>MS Word in here *by simply not saying 'freeware'*, as you are >>>suggesting.

Not *saying* 'freeware' doesn't change that fact at >>>all -- it's still nonfreeware in a freeware group. >>But you actually bought the retail version. Others bought a >>magazine and got the great program to boot. >>These are somehow the same?

>As I said, some people are too stupid to be allowed internet access. Him, me or you? I can see the difference.

He paid a large number of bucks for the exact program that was given away with a magazine. Note the OP's subject. He simply said the program is now free.

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- Gabriele Neukam 21.09.02 09:08.

On that special day, PB, () said. >loads a new web page stating: 'The password for Paintshop Pro 5 is futurepsppromo.' So >it's hardly a 'register' issue to be scared of (sigh) I wish it would work with 'my' version. A little more than a year ago, the German magazine PC Welt put PSP 5.03 onto its cover CD, and directed the readers to a site I have never heard of (and never heard of again). I didn't want to hand my personal data to a company I don't know, so no go. Is there already a term for 'free' software which you can only install by 'paying' someone with your personal data? Something like 'investigateware'?

Gabriele Neukam -- Whoever preaches war in the name of God, abuses religion. Lavish 21.09.02 09:13. Alastair Smeaton wrote in: >On Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:43:08 +0000 (UTC), Lavish >wrote: >>Yes please i'ld like a link to the program. If you can then please send me the Magazine (or even the CD will >>do) at your cost 'cos i am not going to a penny for it. FYI i live in >>India. After all you call it freeware.

I call it restrictedware >>If you are thinking of emailing it to me then please forget it. I have >>no enthusiasm for downloading the huge file on a 33.6 dialup >>connection.. >>Maybe some fair points above, but this last point is bloody ludicrous. >The fact that you only have a 33.6 connection is your problem - or are >you going to limit your definition of freeware to something which will >be delivered to your door for free, or which will pay your isp or >online charges. Now if you are going to include the ISP time and money then nothing in this world is free.

The people in this group need to keep in mind that it is global group and not restricted to USA, UK or some other developed country. And not all of us have it so easy. Pardon for going off topic - but in USA a full vesion of MS XP costs about $80 and the same balooney thing costs in India Rs. 10,000/- that is approximately one month salary of an average Indian. So a freeware (as defined by the ACF norms) goes a long way in promoting computer knowledge in Less Developed Countries.

As such it always pains me when people try to hijack the definition of freeware. >And if you think it takes less time to download thru a link on the >web, compared to downloading an email from your server, you need to >learn a litle more before you post in such aggressive terms. The reasons for prefering a link are as follows: 1.

At least through the link i can use a Download manager and not increase my ontime. Indian Government regulations restrict domestic ISP's to provide mailboxes of sizes more than 5MB. That means the PSP 5 (or similar large programs) in my mail will crash my mailbox and i will have to run ti my ISP to get it reactivated. Refer to JanC's post. >Plenty of freeware is large in size - some people don't want that for >a variety of reasons (we call these small programmes 'boomer-sized' ) >:-) I agree and i have been a happy user of boomer sized programs for a long time. I dont have anything against large sized but us poor world cousins prefer small software and/or it is simpler to contact the friendly neighbourhood software man and increase piracy >>Else shut up about PSP 5 being freeware >While I agree it is not freeware, my guess would be that some people >will be nterested in this news - especially as it may well be >available for general download (without buying the disk) at some stage >soon. I'ld like that evry much.

Thank You Regards Lavish Paul Batchie 21.09.02 09:48. Blinky the Shark wrote in message news:1094046.jizRJEuD28@blinkynews.invalid. >Mike Echo wrote: >>>Yes, but I'm sure a lot of people would gladly buy the magazine in >>order to get their 'free' software. If the OP had said that PSP was >>available in a magazine but did not mention the word 'freeware' then >>none of this would have happened. One small word makes a big >>difference, huh?:-) >>No, it doesn't. I suggest you take your own advice, Binky-Winky -- if indeed you're capable of sequential thought. Mindless, narrrow pedants like you invariably focus their myopic gaze on whatever happens to be immediately under their nose and completely fail to take in the wider picture.

This group is called alt.comp.freeware, and the news that Paint Shop Pro 5 is being distributed free on a magazine cover CD is obviously of great interest to many of the participants in this thread - not least the FAQ-thumping John Corliss, who's straining at the bit to get his hands on the program. The fact that it may not be immediately available for download is neither here nor there: the point is that there's every reason to expect that will be in the near future. This is *exactly* the sort of news that members of this newsgroup are interested in.

Thanks to David Burgess's heads-up, they can keep an eye out for the program. And, of course, many of us in the UK are grateful for this information as we consider PSP5 for the price of a pint of beer as near to freeware as makes no difference. It's tempting to speculate that you chose to name yourself after a shark because that species has scarcely evolved at all since the Miocene era some 15 million years ago. Unfortunately for you, the internet, and the Usenet in particular, is no place for inflexible, narrow-minded dinosaurs who cling desperately to the past and resist every kind of change. People here currently want to know about all aspects of freeware - including news of those programs that are newly being offered free by magazines.

If that doesn't suit you and your fellow dinosaurs, then I suggest you retract your reptilian heads back beneath the surface of the primal swamp and make way for the rest of us. Snapper Snapper 21.09.02 10:48. John Corliss wrote in message news:3D8C830B.9F3D3E3F@ccountry.net. >Paul Batchie wrote: >Paul, the group has voted on this exact issue and the following is the >majority opinion: >>'CDWare - this is software that is included on CDs that come with >magazines.

If the software is freeware that is freely downloadable from >the internet, then it is okay to recommend it as a solution to a software >need. A link to the download site should be provided when recommending it >as a software solution. If there is no download site available, then it >should not be recommended as a solution to a software need in >alt.comp.freeware for two reasons: first, you MUST purchase the magazine >to obtain the CD.

Secondly, such software on most 'free' CDs usually may >not be freely distributed according to the EULA (end user licensing >agreement.)' >>Allowing the dillution of the definition of freeware does this group a >disservice by cluttering it up with off topic threads. If this process is >allowed to go unchecked, eventually the group will become like what I have >seen other groups turn into: totally nothing about freeware in it. >Some people can't seem to grasp this notion and object to 'being told >what to say or do', but they are missing the point. Being as this is an >unmoderated group, it is up to the regulars to do what they can to make >sure the group stays on-topic. John Corliss wrote in message news:3D8BA25B.58193A56@ccountry.net. >I have version 4 [of Paint Shop Pro] on my computer and would like to upgrade to 5. Do you have a link?

>>-- >Regards from John Corliss So although the post is deemed 'off-topic' by the FAQ-thumping Corliss, he loses no time in using the information it contained to attempt to bag the program for himself. What a ludicrous hypocrite! Snapper Snapper 21.09.02 10:50. Henk de Jong wrote in message news:XX%i9.88420@zwoll1.home.nl. >168689921 schreef in >: >>>'Sietse Fliege' wrote in >>news:amgsph$ad8$: >>>>>You can wait a year and then version 5 still will not be freeware. >>>>But it may well be downloadable from one of the Futurenet websites, most >>likely where they already have some old cover >>gifts.

Mind you some cover gifts have never been uploaded like >>Macromedia Dreamweaver 1.0 which was give aways with netmag believe it >>or not. >>>>Can you please direct me to the download link of Dreamweaver? I need that >thing very bad. READ the post, you moron! Snapper Snapper 21.09.02 10:53. Just LOVE your tag line. So that lurkers from two-bit has-been nations can rattle their jealousies over U.S.

Taking the moral lead. Too bad such an Amnesty International wasn't in place when U.K.

Might was murdering all their colonials in India, Ireland, Scotland, Singapore, Aussieland, Zedderland, southern Africa, etc etc etc etc ==================================================== 'Andy Mabbett' wrote in message >Sign Amnesty International's petition - stop the USA from violating >International Law by obtaining war crime impunity agreements: >--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/02 Tiger 21.09.02 11:56. 'Paragon' wrote in news:hd3j9.540513$UU1.88858@sccrnsc03: >Just LOVE your tag line. So that lurkers from two-bit has-been >nations can rattle their jealousies over U.S.

Taking the moral >lead. Too bad such an Amnesty International wasn't in place when >U.K. Might was murdering all their >colonials in India, Ireland, Scotland, Singapore, Aussieland, >Zedderland, southern Africa, etc etc etc etc Mabbett has mental/emotional issues. Best to ignore him. -- Tiger *Remove yourclothes. To reply via email John Picken 21.09.02 12:26.

On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 18:51:58 GMT, 'Paragon' wrote: >Just LOVE your tag line. So that lurkers from two-bit has-been nations can >rattle their jealousies over U.S. Taking the moral lead. Too bad such an >Amnesty International wasn't in place when U.K. Might was murdering all >their >colonials in India, Ireland, Scotland, Singapore, Aussieland, Zedderland, >southern Africa, etc etc etc etc Your knowledge of history is severely lacking. Did not murder colonials. Some colonials, and American ex-colonials, did however, murder aboriginal people.

Jkp Blinky the Shark 21.09.02 12:25. Wrote: >>>No, it doesn't.

As >>CDware-not-also-available-for-download, it isn't freeware, and your >>little scheme no more excuses this than if one tried to sell MS Word >>in >>here *by simply not saying 'freeware'*, as you are suggesting. Not >>*saying* 'freeware' doesn't change that fact at all -- it's still >>nonfreeware in a freeware group. >>But you actually bought the retail version.

Others bought a magazine >and got the great program to boot. >These are somehow the same? Your point, if you have one, is unclear. -- Blinky Blinky the Shark 21.09.02 12:29. Harvey V wrote: >On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 09:52:02 GMT, Blinky the Shark wrote >>But it still does not belong here.

>Is this not why the header thingie [OT] was invented? No, this is why 'on topic' was invented. Shall we begin having half of the threads in here about which is better, soccer or basketball, too? Why not, by your thinking? After all, you can always filter on '[OT]'. We have to think a little further than the end of our noses on this kind of stuff. Stuff doesn't go away because you ignore it, and it doesn't belong just because *you're* willing to ignore it.

-- Blinky Blinky the Shark 21.09.02 12:37. Snapper wrote: >It's tempting to speculate that you chose to name yourself after a Tempting, perhaps, but typically wrong. (Actually, the source of the nick's explained on my site.) >People here currently want to know about all aspects of freeware - >including news of those programs that are newly being offered free by >magazines.

If that doesn't suit you and your fellow dinosaurs, then I >suggest you retract your reptilian heads back beneath the surface of >the primal swamp and make way for the rest of us. Don't bet on it. -- Blinky Blinky the Shark 21.09.02 12:45.

Mike Echo wrote: >In article, >no.spam@box.invalid says. >>>>Yes, but I'm sure a lot of people would gladly buy the magazine in >>>order to get their 'free' software. If the OP had said that PSP was >>>available in a magazine but did not mention the word 'freeware' >>>then none of this would have happened. One small word makes a big >>>difference, huh?:-) >>>>No, it doesn't. >>I'll try. It's a new concept for me.:-) >>>As CDware-not-also-available-for-download, it isn't freeware, >>I never said it was freeware. I agree it isn't but just think many >people here go overboard in policing OT posts, especially if the OP >was only trying to help.

Amazon has some very good deals on books, right now. That's helpful. Is it on topic? >>and your >>little scheme no more excuses this than if one tried to sell MS Word >>in >>here *by simply not saying 'freeware'*, as you are suggesting. Not >>*saying* 'freeware' doesn't change that fact at all -- it's still >>nonfreeware in a freeware group. >>Lighten up, Blinky. I'm sure there are more important things to worry >about.;-) I shan't, and I'll concern myself with other issues, as well.

I'm not a one-track railroad. I care about the group, and I don't wish to see it become alt.comp.software. There's already an alt.comp.shareware -- we don't need another one here. -- Blinky Jim Allison 21.09.02 13:13. On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 16:21:53 +0100, RE: Re: Paint Shop Pro 5 is now free Andy Mabbett wrote: >>Paul, the group has voted on this exact issue and the following is the >>majority opinion: >>Though you may wish - and, indeed, should feel free - to disregard that >'vote', since it was conducted not by a neutral third party, but by >someone with a very partisan interest, and with no verification of >'voters' identity. In summary: it was a joke. And the vote is nearly two years old.

We've had a substantial turnover in participants since them. Even if the vote wasn't a joke, it's outdated.

I guess that's why some have suggested a new vote. -- Performing Arts in the Shoals Area Shoals Symphony Orchestra: Opera South: Blinky the Shark 21.09.02 12:49. Snapper wrote: >So although the post is deemed 'off-topic' by the FAQ-thumping >Corliss, he loses no time in using the information it contained to >attempt to bag the program for himself.

The natural place for a $100 bill isn't lying under a table at a diner. I know that, and - one would hope - you know that.

But I'd not fault either of us for picking it up if we found it there, even if one of us *had* just observed, 'Y'know, the floor of a diner really isn't the best place for one to keep his $100 bills.' -- Blinky Blinky the Shark 21.09.02 12:50. Vic Dura wrote: >He doesn't want to us to ignore it because it doesn't fit our needs. >He wants us to ignore it because it doesn't fit his needs. The reason it doesn't belong here is that it's not freeware -- at least not yet. It's not because of any one person's needs.

It's because it's not freeware. Again, you're having problems separating facts from your John Corliss infatuation. There might be medical help for that kind of confusion; might be something that could help. -- Blinky Snapper 21.09.02 13:45. Blinky the Shark wrote in message news:1393991.AiLkR8GMaF@blinkynews.invalid. >Snapper wrote: >>>Andy Mabbett wrote in message >>news:8UTzNeKR6Ij9EwSd@pigsonthewing.org.uk. >>>>>So, Corliss thinks we should avoid off- topic threads.

Except when >>>they're about him, his drinking, his friends' holidays and his guns >>>and bike, of course. >>>>ROFL (although I suspect the apostrophe in 'friends' is misplaced).

>>;-) >>Your suspicion is undoubtedly misplaced. I believe the reference is to >the holidays of John and 'other Americans', which would, indeed, >require the possessive of the plural. Mabbett may be a head case, but >he's generally a technically good writer.

Kinda like you. Er, it was a *joke* Binky-Winky. Next time I make a wisecrack, I'll include an explanatory footnote, just for your benefit. Snapper Snapper 21.09.02 13:56.

Blinky the Shark wrote in message news:2770762.FIXYtiPCZC@blinkynews.invalid. >The natural place for a $100 bill isn't lying under a table. No, but I suspect that may the first place they look for you when you go missing. >I know that, and - one would hope - you know that. But I'd not fault >either of us for picking it up if we found it there, even if one of us >*had* just observed, 'Y'know, the floor of a diner really isn't the >best place for one to keep his $100 bills.' 'isn't really the best place to keep *one's* $100 bills'. A private comment between diners is one thing.

Spamming unmoderated public Usenet groups with looney 'off-topic' warnings is quite another. Snapper Blinky the Shark 21.09.02 13:51. Blinky the Shark wrote in news:1178567.xnQQmRGgVf@blinkynews.invalid: >Danin wrote: >>>On Fri, 20 Sep 2002 22:30:36 +0100, 'Snapper' >>wrote.

>>I thought it was suppose to be freeware now? >>>>Perhaps. But I suspect this is a special licensed version, as they >>have distributed in the past PSP versions. I.e., some features are >>missing, such as.gif and.tif compression, for which royalties are >>due to Unisys. There may be other restrictions as to distribution in >>the licensed version, which may require a thorough read of the license >>agreement.

>>Datapoint: I bought and have retail PSP 5, and it has.gif and.tif. >Here's a starting place for comparison. >Has them both. Blinky the Shark 21.09.02 14:25. Snapper wrote: >>Blinky the Shark wrote in message >news:2770762.FIXYtiPCZC@blinkynews.invalid.

>>>The natural place for a $100 bill isn't lying under a table. >>No, but I suspect that may the first place they look for you when you >go missing. >>>I know that, and - one would hope - you know that. But I'd not >>fault >>either of us for picking it up if we found it there, even if one of >>us *had* just observed, 'Y'know, the floor of a diner really isn't >>the best place for one to keep his $100 bills.' >>'isn't really the best place to keep *one's* $100 bills'.

Yes, that's an alternate way of saying the same thing I said, just as grammatically. >A private comment between diners is one thing. Spamming unmoderated >public Usenet groups with looney 'off-topic' warnings is quite >another.

Look up 'analogy'. I maintain that that one is valid. -- Blinky GeoThermal 21.09.02 14:57. 'Blinky the Shark' wrote in message news:2101152.b0UfXFNv7u@blinkynews.invalid. >>Lighten up, Blinky. I'm sure there are more important things to worry >>about.;-) >>I shan't, and I'll concern myself with other issues, as well. I'm not >a one-track railroad.

I care about the group, and I don't wish to see >it become alt.comp.software. There's already an alt.comp.shareware -- >we don't need another one here. Imo it's further away from being shareware than freeware. Maybe someone should start alt.comp.free.software or similar and make it more open to other forms of freeware. Andy Mabbett 21.09.02 15:15. In message, Blinky the Shark writes >Mabbett may be a head case [.] >(The holidays reference probably is to the time a Canadian - not even >one of the Dreaded Americans - expressed an American holiday greeting >in the group.) Not only are you gratuitously offensive, but you're also wrong.

-- Andy Mabbett Sign Amnesty International's petition - stop the USA from violating International Law by obtaining war crime impunity agreements: Danin 21.09.02 15:30. On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 20:07:30 GMT, Simon Whitaker wrote. Has them both. Since I know that Unisys demands a minimum royalty payment for every licensed copy distributed, and since the Patent doesn't begin to expire until sometime next year, I wonder how Jasc can afford to do this. Perhaps they would have made some sort of lump payment based on the magazine's subscribers and the run of CD's, but as for distributing online, that would seem impossibly expensive even for a company the size of Jasc.

- return address is altered slightly to reduce spam. Henk de Jong 21.09.02 15:27.

Mike Echo wrote: >I just happened to choose follow up on your particular message in >order to make a general point. I was not meaning to do any 'creative >editing' of your post, just trying to give an overall >observation/opinion.

I meant no offence, believe me. I believe you now, no problem.:-) I had just no way of knowing that. Hint: had you added one line explaining that it was an overall opinion, not a reply to my post, then I would not have followed up.

The irony is of course that your pleading for shortening these threads only made it worse. >>You see, the thing is: point blank told a lie, because: >>Maybe he made an honest error? There is a difference between lying and >making a mistake unintentionally. Yes, there is indeed, and I really only should have said that he made a mistake. But I really was getting annoyed with all the wrong information in this thread. (He certainly was not the only one.) And then I also seemed to get punished for correcting wrong info. -- Cheers, Sietse Fliege Sietse Fliege 21.09.02 15:42.

David_B wrote: >Mike Echo said; >>>If the OP had said that PSP was available in a magazine but did not >>mention the word 'freeware' then none of this would have happened. >>Sorry Mike, because your response was generally supportive, but I >didn't mention the word. I said it was free, not freeware, and the >distinction was deliberately made. That difference is too subtile for a subject line (where it still is), IMHO.

I guess it would have been better to avoid the word altogether and mark the thread [OT] from the beginning. >Secondly, my reasons for posting: >>As I said in a previous post, other free, ex-commercial programs have >featured quite heavily here in the past - though I now realise that >these were probably downloadable from the PC Plus site. A couple of >years ago, I posted a heads-up to a CD-based special version of PSP 4 >here without reaction. >>And more recently I've seen, for instance, Poser 3 and Maya LE flagged >up - Poser available on CD only, and Maya LE a huge download and >crippled almost beyond use. Maya got some response, but Poser got by >unchallenged, as far as I remember. I only know about Maya and happen to be the one (together with Andreas) who posted it. At the time I could not reach the (overloaded) website and did not know it was that crippled.

I only knew that a program worth thousands of dollars became available as demo and that it caused a lot of excitement. That seemed enough for me to justify an one-off [OT] labeled announcement. >That's why I posted the news here. I acknowledge now that this was a >mistake, and I apologise; but I don't think the post deserved the flak >it got. I think that when a quality program like PSP 5 temporarily becomes available on CD, albeit only in restricted regios, it is quite OK to make a one-time announcement in an [OT] labeled post. That is quite another thing than equating CDware with freeware. This group has clearly voted for CDware!= freeware.

I really am against CDware being suggested and discussed all the time. I do think that a little flexibility is appropriate and I (mis)use that myself sometimes. -- Cheers, Sietse Fliege Steve H 21.09.02 15:51. On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 18:09:58 +0100, 'Snapper' wrote: >I suggest you take your own advice, Binky-Winky -- if indeed you're capable >of sequential thought. Mindless, narrrow pedants like you invariably focus >their myopic gaze on whatever happens to be immediately under their nose and >completely fail to take in the wider picture. >>This group is called alt.comp.freeware, and the news that Paint Shop Pro 5 >is being distributed free on a magazine cover CD is obviously of great >interest to many of the participants in this thread - not least the >FAQ-thumping John Corliss, who's straining at the bit to get his hands on >the program.

The fact that it may not be immediately available for download >is neither here nor there: the point is that there's every reason to expect >that will be in the near future. This is *exactly* the sort of news that >members of this newsgroup are interested in. Thanks to David Burgess's >heads-up, they can keep an eye out for the program. PCPLUS once released Filemaker Pro 2.1 on a cover CD.

To the best of my knowledge this great program has never been made available as a download. Ditto Lotus Wordpro 97. Well, you get the picture.

Can we now expect to see a pile of posts telling us all about 'coverware' which may. Be available for download in; A: The near future B: The fullness of time.or maybe never?

>And, of course, many of us in the UK are grateful for this information as we >consider PSP5 for the price of a pint of beer as near to freeware as makes >no difference. >'s.only.a.fiver.guv? There used to be a site that collated details of all the software released each month with the most popular computer magazines - long since disappeared, unfortunately. However, it occurs to me that it wouldn't be too hard to pop links to the half dozen major computer magazines' sites in your favourites folder and check them once a month. >It's tempting to speculate that you chose to name yourself after a shark >because that species has scarcely evolved at all since the Miocene era some >15 million years ago. Unfortunately for you, the internet, and the Usenet in >particular, is no place for inflexible, narrow-minded dinosaurs who cling >desperately to the past and resist every kind of change.

How about applying some sequential thinking here, and taking in the wider picture. The noble shark has indeed been around a very long time. A very, very long time.

It has survived where other species have disappeared, leaving barely a trace of their existence. Basically, the shark got it dead right many, many millions of years ago - and just because it hasn't sprouted wings since you last looked doesn't mean it ain't still evolving. Just because it's old and established doesn't mean it's no good. And when it decides to take a lump out of you, it does so not in spite of its great evolutionary age - but because of it, which is why we evolutionary 'new kids on the block' tend to be scared of them. They really are rather good at what they do, you know.

There are those who say the dinosaurs didn't die out, but evolved into birds. Was that a bad move? Well, how many chickens are YOU afraid of?

All that's to say that there's often merit in establishing a status-quo, and maintaining it. >>People here currently want to know about all aspects of freeware Which people in particular? What about those who don't? >- including >news of those programs that are newly being offered free by magazines. If >that doesn't suit you and your fellow dinosaurs, then I suggest you retract >your reptilian heads back beneath the surface of the primal swamp and make >way for the rest of us. >Why should anyone make way for you? Personally I quite like the idea that any software recommended here is available now on the web at the click of a URL; is free; contains no adverts, no nags, no spyware and no hidden costs.

Why shouldn't you be the one making way. Or is that taking too wide a view?

-- Steve ( out in the sticks ) Email: anyoldname(*AT*)gmx(*dot*)co(*dot*)uk Blinky the Shark 21.09.02 16:03. Henk de Jong wrote: >Blinky the Shark schreef in >news:2047131.S8BPtWb9mk@blinkynews.invalid: >>>Andy Mabbett wrote: >>>>>In message, Gabriele >>>Neukam writes >>>>Is there already a term for 'free' software which you can only >>>>install by 'paying' someone with your personal data?

Something like >>>>'investigateware'? >>>>>>'Paranoiaware'? >>>>C'mon.time for your meds. Atsa good boy, now.

>>I always thought that this was without any hope for improvement. >Didn't know that there was medication available for this. And I think the government pays for it. -- Blinky Blinky the Shark 21.09.02 15:53. On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 18:51:58 GMT, 'Paragon' wrote: >==================================================== >'Andy Mabbett' wrote in message >>Sign Amnesty International's petition - stop the USA from violating >>International Law by obtaining war crime impunity agreements: >>>Just LOVE your tag line.

So that lurkers from two-bit has-been nations can >rattle their jealousies over U.S. Taking the moral lead.

'Moral lead'? 'First strike' attacking of Iran is perhaps a 'moral lead'?

Maybe the US paying billions of dollars a year for the Israelis to occupy/control arab land is another example of your 'morality'? I think that some here can do without that type of 'morality'.

Many non Americans would simply call such examples 'international thuggery'. Not something anyone should be jealous of. John Fitzsimons 21.09.02 16:40. Steve H wrote in message news:e5opouk8fd0093l4d56j5pu3roc84u7td7@4ax.com. >The noble shark has indeed been around a very long time. A very, very >long time.

It has survived where other species have disappeared, >leaving barely a trace of their existence. >Basically, the shark got it dead right many, many millions of years >ago - and just because it hasn't sprouted wings since you last looked >doesn't mean it ain't still evolving. Just because it's old and >established doesn't mean it's no good. >>And when it decides to take a lump out of you, it does so not in spite >of its great evolutionary age - but because of it, which is why we >evolutionary 'new kids on the block' tend to be scared of them. They >really are rather good at what they do, you know. >>There are those who say the dinosaurs didn't die out, but evolved into >birds.

>Was that a bad move? Well, how many chickens are YOU afraid of? Snapper wrote in message news:amilnu$62f25$1@ID-96100.news.dfncis.de. >Er, it was a *joke* Binky-Winky. Next time I make a wisecrack, I'll include >an explanatory footnote, just for your benefit. Consider yourself another beneficiary when the time comes, Steve.

As for your other points -- I prefer to converse with someone a little higher up the food chain if it's all the same to you. Snapper Steve H 21.09.02 19:14. On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 02:21:24 +0100, 'Snapper' wrote: >>Snapper wrote in message >news:amilnu$62f25$1@ID-96100.news.dfncis.de.

>>>Er, it was a *joke* Binky-Winky. Next time I make a wisecrack, I'll >include >>an explanatory footnote, just for your benefit. >>Consider yourself another beneficiary when the time comes, Steve. I can hardly wait.the guys in Montreux must be buffing up your golden rose even now. >>As for your other points -- I prefer to converse with someone a little >higher up the food chain if it's all the same to you. >They'd be even less impressed by your lack of reasoning - but go ahead, knock yourself out ( oh please ).

-- Steve ( out in the sticks ) Email: anyoldname(*AT*)gmx(*dot*)co(*dot*)uk Trevor Noble 21.09.02 19:28. 'Gabriele Neukam' wrote in message news:MPG.17f6a9aa6563fc44989dc4@news.t-online.de. >On that special day, PB, () said. >>>loads a new web page stating: 'The password for Paintshop Pro 5 is futurepsppromo.' So >>it's hardly a 'register' issue to be scared of >>(sigh) I wish it would work with 'my' version. A little more than a year >ago, the German magazine PC Welt put PSP 5.03 onto its cover CD, and >directed the readers to a site I have never heard of (and never heard of >again).

I didn't want to hand my personal data to a company I don't know, >so no go. Nobody is being forced to give any 'personal details' in any registration process. You could register the name: Mr. Bugs Bunny at DisneyWorld France with a bugs@hotmail address for all that it matters to the Jasc company! The Feds are not going to come to check if you have furry ears and nibble carrots!!!

Stop being so paranoid and enjoy a free version of PaintShop Pro. Regds Trevor point blank 21.09.02 16:44. >>You see, the thing is: point blank told a lie, I'm sorry you see it that way Sietse. The magazine cover has a panel that states: 'Free - 12 full apps'. This refers to 12 programs on its CD, including Paint Shop Pro 5, that users previously had to pay for (btw, the CD also contains a number of other programs like Ad Aware, Zone Alarm, InfranView etc that are often mentioned on this group). The magazine describes Paint Shop Pro as an 'exclusive' because it is the first time the full version is being given away in the UK.

I did not know if the program could be downloaded or not, but assumed that, if not, it probably soon will be. I also assume it will soon appear with other magazines, perhaps in your country too.

Even if PSP could be downloaded, I would probably have bought the magazine anyway as this is a large program. Surely it qualifies as freeware because, other than the small cost of the magazine, it is 'free'. I can understand if you are irritated because you can't get it - I would feel the same way. But if you think it 'told a lie' in order to deceive anyone, I want to assure you that was not my intention. Blinky the Shark 21.09.02 23:36.

On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 00:44:23 +0100, point blank wrote: >>>>You see, the thing is: point blank told a lie, >I did not know if the program could be downloaded or not, but assumed >that, if not, it probably soon will be. I also assume it will soon appear >with other magazines, perhaps in your country too. If it does become available for free download, then it will be freeware. Until then, it's not freeware.

This is a freeware group. >Even if PSP could be downloaded, I would probably have bought the >magazine anyway as this is a large program. Surely it qualifies as >freeware because, other than the small cost of the magazine, it is >'free'. 'Small cost' does not equal 'no cost'.

Back to school wiff you. >I can understand if you are irritated because you can't get it - I would I already have it - bought it years ago - and I'm still irritated: irritated when non-freeware is called freeware and promoted in here. So it's certainly not a matter of PSP-envy with all of us. It's a matter of it not being freeware.

-- Blinky GeoThermal 22.09.02 02:48. 'Blinky the Shark' wrote in message news:1327905.3Jh47j16b3@blinkynews.invalid. *To me* PSP 5 available as a full product on the cover CD of a magazine I occasionally buy anyway, is freeware. It might not be freeware in the sense of this newsgroup, and I'm not questioning or complaining about that in any way as I appreciate the group has set guidelines on this. However if this is not a suitable place to post about obtaining an excellent piece of software 'free' then I'd suggest something like alt.comp.free.software as otherwise we could miss out on some great software. Just my (I hope balanced) opinion.:-) Vic Dura 22.09.02 05:56.

On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 10:48:51 +0100, RE: Re: Paint Shop Pro 5 is now free 'GeoThermal' wrote: >*To me* PSP 5 available as a full product on the cover CD of a magazine I >occasionally buy anyway, is freeware. It might not be freeware in the sense >of this newsgroup, and I'm not questioning or complaining about that in any >way as I appreciate the group has set guidelines on this. IMO the group has not set *guidelines* since there is no overwhelming consensus on this particular question; and in an un-moderated NG, an overwhelming consensus is the only guideline available. A 51%/49% consensus doesn't cut it since the 51% have no police-power (thankfully) to silence the 49%. Only when there is an overwhelming consensus e.g. 60/40, 70/30, etc is a guideline effectively established by the moral-power rather than the police-power of the NG. There are many here that consider free software available on a CD that comes with a magazine as freeware and entirely appropriate to mention in this group.

There is no overwhelming or even apparent consensus for excluding discussion or mention of this kind of software, hence the pedants here lack the moral-social power to impose the censorship. This is because acceptance of censorship is naturally abhorrent to people and can only be accomplished with police power (lacking here) or moral-social power which is also lacking. Bottom line is free software on a CD that comes with a magazine is appropriate freeware. -- Performing Arts in the Shoals Area Shoals Symphony Orchestra: Opera South: Snapper 22.09.02 07:39. Blinky the Shark wrote in message news:13073734.1iQmUNvJof@blinkynews.invalid. >Snapper wrote: >>>>>Blinky the Shark wrote in message >>news:2770762.FIXYtiPCZC@blinkynews.invalid. >>>>>The natural place for a $100 bill isn't lying under a table.

>>>>No, but I suspect that may the first place they look for you when you >>go missing. >>>>>I know that, and - one would hope - you know that. At least you have the honesty to admit it. But I'd not >>>fault >>>either of us for picking it up if we found it there, even if one of >>>us *had* just observed, 'Y'know, the floor of a diner really isn't >>>the best place for one to keep his $100 bills.'

>>>>'isn't really the best place to keep *one's* $100 bills'. >>Yes, that's an alternate way of saying the same thing I said, just as >grammatically. Er, I'm afraid not, Binky. Admittedly you were defending John Corliss, whose grammar is even worse than yours; but: 'the best place for one to keep his $100 bills' is one of the most clumsy and inept constructions I've ever had the misfortune to read. (And while we're on the subject of your painfully illiterate prose, it's 'alternative way', not 'alternate' way -- your sentence requires the adjective, not the verb).;-) >>A private comment between diners is one thing.

Spamming unmoderated >>public Usenet groups with looney 'off-topic' warnings is quite >>another. >>Look up 'analogy'. I maintain that that one is valid. Look it up yourself and you'll find 'that that one' (another elegant turn of phrase, lol) is invalid. Snapper Alan 22.09.02 08:11. Sietse Fliege wrote: >>That difference is too subtile for a subject line (where it still is), >IMHO. I guess it would have been better to avoid the word altogether >and mark the thread [OT] from the beginning.

>[snip] >>I think that when a quality program like PSP 5 temporarily becomes >available on CD, albeit only in restricted regios, it is quite OK to >make a one-time announcement in an [OT] labeled post. >>That is quite another thing than equating CDware with freeware.

>This group has clearly voted for CDware!= freeware. >I really am against CDware being suggested and discussed all the time. >>I do think that a little flexibility is appropriate and I (mis)use >that myself sometimes. Best answer I've seen so far Sieste.

Says it all in a nutshell. You win the prize (a 'free' CD:-)??? ) Alan Sietse Fliege 22.09.02 08:31. Point blank wrote: >I did not know if the program could be downloaded or not, but assumed >that, if not, it probably soon will be. You assumed, but that really is not good enough. I assure you that you will not be able to download a freeware PSP 5 version ever. Well, let's say within 10 years When the time comes that you can prove me wrong, do let us know.:-) >Even if PSP could be downloaded, I would probably have bought the >magazine anyway as this is a large program.

Surely it qualifies as >freeware because, other than the small cost of the magazine, it is >'free'. *IF* PSP could be downloaded.

That *IF* is critical! *Then* it would not be off topic. >I can understand if you are irritated because you can't get it - I >would feel the same way. I already have PSP, for some years now (and would love to see it become available as freeware). Besides, I really have no problem finding PC Format in Holland. (I read somewhere that in the U.S you can find PC Format in the magazine rack at most Barnes and Nobles, but I have no idea if that is true.) >But if you think I 'told a lie' in order to deceive anyone, I want to >assure you that was not my intention.

I already wrote in another post that I should have said that you made a mistake, but that I was irritated for various reasons. I want to add one thing: I think that when a quality program like PSP 5 temporarily becomes available with some magazine, albeit only in restricted regios, it is quite OK to make a one-time announcement in an [OT] labeled post. Mind you: important programs only and a one-time announcement. I would love to see a.c.f. Being able to handle that without longwinding threads.

-- Regards, Sietse Fliege rhexis 22.09.02 08:39. 'Snapper' wrote in message news:amkls2$6ld08$1@ID-96100.news.dfncis.de. >>Look up 'analogy'.

I maintain that that one is valid. >>Look it up yourself and you'll find 'that that one' (another elegant >turn of phrase, lol) is invalid.

You really shouldn't flame somebody's English, while using such nonsensical words as 'lol'. Besides, this isn't alt.usage.english. Commenting on grammar in a lon-language group is a quick way to indicate that you're all out of arguments.

-- rhexis Sietse Fliege 22.09.02 09:04. Rhexis wrote in message news:3d8de84d$0$95131$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk. >'Snapper' wrote in message >news:amkls2$6ld08$1@ID-96100.news.dfncis.de. >>>>Look up 'analogy'.

I maintain that that one is valid. >>>>Look it up yourself and you'll find 'that that one' (another elegant >>turn of phrase, lol) is invalid. >>You really shouldn't flame somebody's English, while using such >nonsensical words as 'lol'. 'lol' is not a word, idiot, it's an acronym, and quite acceptable in a Usenet newsgroup. >Besides, this isn't alt.usage.english. Commenting on grammar in >a lon-language group is a quick way to indicate that you're all >out of arguments. Except when a point of grammar is the subject of the argument, idiot.

Snapper Th.@Cawdor.Net 22.09.02 10:28. On Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:10:56 +0100, 'GeoThermal' wrote: >' wrote in message >news:accmou8g0cnq7g62b47vv41rp6le90ll02@4ax.com. >>Just to let you know. >>>>The full version of PSP 5 has been included with the October edition >>of PC Format Magazine in the UK. No restrictions, nags or timeouts.

>>a nice program. >>Thanks for that.

Always liked PSP. >Considering I can get the magazine here in the USA for $13.95 at Borders that would be a hell of a deal if I didn't already have a newer version. I can't believe there's a nearly 100 post thread bitching about somebody pointing this out. Considering the savings involved the original poster just did a lot of folks a public service, I know I passed the info to several of my freinds already rhexis 22.09.02 10:31.

'Snapper' wrote in message news:amktir$6nll6$1@ID-96100.news.dfncis.de. >'lol' is not a word, idiot, it's an acronym, and quite acceptable >in a Usenet newsgroup. No, fucknaut, LOL is an acronym and 'lol' is not a word. Besides, a million idiotic AOL users can't be wrong, so feel free to litter your posts with misplaced laughter outbreaks using chat language, while flaming others for their writing. >Except when a point of grammar is the subject of the argument, idiot. No, clownboat, the subject is PSP5. You derailed the thread by attacking the grammar of Blinky and John Corliss.

-- rhexis Th.@Cawdor.Net 22.09.02 11:18. On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 09:40:38 +1000, John Fitzsimons wrote: >On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 18:51:58 GMT, 'Paragon' >wrote: >>>>==================================================== >>'Andy Mabbett' wrote in message >>>Sign Amnesty International's petition - stop the USA from violating >>>International Law by obtaining war crime impunity agreements: >>>>>>Just LOVE your tag line.

So that lurkers from two-bit has-been nations can >>rattle their jealousies over U.S. Taking the moral lead. >>>>'Moral lead'? 'First strike' attacking of Iran is perhaps a 'moral >lead'? I think you mean Iraq genius. >Maybe the US paying billions of dollars a year for the >Israelis to occupy/control arab land is another example of your >'morality'? >>I think that some here can do without that type of 'morality'.

Many >non Americans would simply call such examples 'international >thuggery'. Not something anyone should be jealous of. >Zo 22.09.02 11:36. ' wrote: >Just to let you know. >>The full version of PSP 5 has been included with the October edition >of PC Format Magazine in the UK. No restrictions, nags or timeouts.

>a nice program. Dave, if I may get back on track, do you happen to have the CD and just where do you enter a password?

I believe this password set up is unique to the CD only. The reason I'm asking, is because I came across a site that has the 5.03 version available and downloaded, installed (currently on day 1 of 30 days), but can find no where to enter a password. The only info that I can find is how to buy:-( Zo Boomer 22.09.02 11:48.

Rhexis wrote in message news:3d8dfe61$0$95107$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk. >'Snapper' wrote in message >news:amktir$6nll6$1@ID-96100.news.dfncis.de. >>>'lol' is not a word, idiot, it's an acronym, and quite acceptable >>in a Usenet newsgroup. >>No, fucknaut, LOL is an acronym and 'lol' is not a word.

'this isn't alt.usage. Divan E Shams E Tabrizi Pdf Files. english.' >Besides, a million idiotic AOL users can't be wrong, so feel >free to litter your posts with misplaced laughter outbreaks using >chat language, while flaming others for their writing. When you *know* the rules, you may break them with impunity, idiot. >>Except when a point of grammar is the subject of the argument, idiot. >>No, clownboat, the subject is PSP5. You derailed the thread by >attacking the grammar of Blinky and John Corliss.

Wrong again, fathead. Binky 'derailed' the thread with this little digression: 'The natural place for a $100 bill isn't lying under a table at a diner. I know that, and - one would hope - you know that. But I'd not fault either of us for picking it up if we found it there, even if one of us *had* just observed, 'Y'know, the floor of a diner really isn't the best place for one to keep his $100 bills.'

I merely corrected his grammar. And now *you've* commandeered the thread for a jolly little excursion into the way-off-topic territory of AOL and acronyms. Apposite screen names isn't the only thing you and Binky have in common. Snapper rhexis 22.09.02 12:38. 'Snapper' wrote in message news:aml54k$6s5c9$1@ID-96100.news.dfncis.de.

>>No, fucknaut, LOL is an acronym and 'lol' is not a word. >>'this isn't alt.usage.english.' I'm not the grammar nazi here. You started this by flaming Blinky for something grammar-related. >Wrong again, fathead. Binky 'derailed' the thread with this little >digression: [snip] >I merely corrected his grammar. Which brings us back full-circle to my initial post[1]: Stop being a grammar nazi in a non-language group, and just admit that you've run out of valid arguments (again).

>And now *you've* commandeered the thread for a jolly little excursion >into the way-off-topic territory of AOL and acronyms. Thanks, but your valiant efforts in the art of talking about anything /else/ than freeware haven't gone unnoticed. You deserve much praise too.

>Apposite screen names isn't the only thing you and Binky have in >common. We both think that you are a moronic troll, whose sole contribution to this group is one post mentioning *nix freeware? [1] news:3d8de84d$0$95131$ -- rhexis Henk de Jong 22.09.02 12:38. Rhexis wrote in message news:3d8e1c41$0$95118$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk. >'Snapper' wrote in message >news:aml54k$6s5c9$1@ID-96100.news.dfncis.de. >>>>No, fucknaut, LOL is an acronym and 'lol' is not a word. >>>>'this isn't alt.usage.english.'

>>I'm not the grammar nazi here. You started this by >flaming Blinky for something grammar-related. But it's just fine for you to continue it, eh, fathead? Don't do as I do, do as I tell you. What an unbelieveable hypocrite! No wonder you're such a JC sycophant.

>>Wrong again, fathead. Binky 'derailed' the thread with this little >>digression: >>[snip] >>>I merely corrected his grammar. Which brings us back full-circle to my initial post[1]: Er, no. It demonstrates the falsity of your accusation, Dimbo.

>Stop being a grammar nazi in a non-language group, and just admit >that you've run out of valid arguments (again). On the contrary, I stated my arguments. No one's refuted a single one of them and consequently, there's no need to add further arguments. Try and get with it, idiot. >>And now *you've* commandeered the thread for a jolly little excursion >>into the way-off-topic territory of AOL and acronyms.

>>Thanks, but your valiant efforts in the art of talking about anything >/else/ than freeware haven't gone unnoticed. You deserve much >praise too. Praise where praise is due.

>>Apposite screen names isn't the only thing you and Binky have in >>common. >>We both think that you are a moronic troll, whose sole contribution >to this group is one post mentioning *nix freeware? Q: What do you call a man who makes 8 posts in 24 hours to a poster he defines as 'a moronic troll'? Snapper rhexis 22.09.02 13:35.

On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 13:28:47 -0400, Thane@Cawdor.Net wrote: >On Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:10:56 +0100, 'GeoThermal' >wrote: >>>' wrote in message >>news:accmou8g0cnq7g62b47vv41rp6le90ll02@4ax.com. >>>Just to let you know. >>>>>>The full version of PSP 5 has been included with the October edition >>>of PC Format Magazine in the UK. No restrictions, nags or timeouts. >>>a nice program. >>>>Thanks for that.

Always liked PSP. >>>>Considering I can get the magazine here in the USA for $13.95 at Well, then, I guess it wasn't freeware, then, was it? >I can't believe there's a nearly 100 post thread bitching about >somebody pointing this out. Considering the savings involved the >original poster just did a lot of folks a public service, I know I >passed the info to several of my freinds already Yep, it was cheapware. Now, about its freeware status -- please provide a link where it can be downloaded with its freeware license. Then it'll be freeware.

That *will* be a 'public service'. -- Blinky Blinky the Shark 22.09.02 13:34. On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 14:18:55 -0400, Thane@Cawdor.Net wrote: >On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 09:40:38 +1000, John Fitzsimons >wrote: >>'Moral lead'? 'First strike' attacking of Iran is perhaps a 'moral >>lead'?

>>I think you mean Iraq genius. C'mon, it was just a typo. No, wait a minute -- that's John F.'

So what I *meant* to say, was. John's pretty wrapped up in 'Australia Only' -- that's why he dislikes Americans. The Mideast is not Australian *or* American, so it's even further from his little neighborhood. Besides, when you live on the underside of the world, the blood's always rushing to your head, and it makes you woozy.;) There. That's more like it.:) -- Blinky Snapper 22.09.02 14:24. Boomer wrote: No thanks.

Of all the post that have appeared in this thread, why did you decide to hit on my one and only post? The only reason I asked the original poster was to see if the password that is posted on the PC Format Magazine's web site would indeed work with a downloaded version from the web( and believe me, it took a lot of Googling to find it). It was my intention to share this if the password did work because for all intentional purposes, some would then consider it to be 'freeware'. Wasn't trying to rain on anyone's parade.

Zo Th.@Cawdor.Net 22.09.02 18:00. On 22 Sep 2002 20:45:05 GMT, Blinky the Shark wrote: >On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 13:28:47 -0400, Thane@Cawdor.Net wrote: >>On Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:10:56 +0100, 'GeoThermal' >>wrote: >>>>>' wrote in message >>>news:accmou8g0cnq7g62b47vv41rp6le90ll02@4ax.com. >>>>Just to let you know. >>>>>>>>The full version of PSP 5 has been included with the October edition >>>>of PC Format Magazine in the UK. No restrictions, nags or timeouts. >>>>a nice program.

>>>>>>Thanks for that. Always liked PSP.

>>>>>>>Considering I can get the magazine here in the USA for $13.95 at >>Well, then, I guess it wasn't freeware, then, was it? Yep, its free, you pay for the magazine >>>I can't believe there's a nearly 100 post thread bitching about >>somebody pointing this out.

Considering the savings involved the >>original poster just did a lot of folks a public service, I know I >>passed the info to several of my freinds already >>Yep, it was cheapware. Now, about its freeware status -- please provide >a link where it can be downloaded with its freeware license. But downloading it means using electricity to run the computer.so its not free even then is it?

>Then it'll >be freeware. That *will* be a 'public service'. Why don't you do us all a public service and get a fucking life?

Or is being a prick on USENET the closest you have to something to make you feel important? It's free enough, you pay for the magazine. If that ain't good enough for you tough shit. Simon Whitaker 22.09.02 16:13. Zo wrote in: >if I may get back on track, do you happen to have the CD and just >where do you enter a password?

I believe this password set up is >unique to the CD only. The reason I'm asking, is because I came >across a site that has the 5.03 version available and downloaded, >installed (currently on day 1 of 30 days), but can find no where to >enter a password. The only info that I can find is how to buy:-( The PSP5 instalation files are contained in a self extracting, password protected zip file which will extract to the windows temp directory once the correct password is entered. It's the zip file that needs the password and not the program. Alan 22.09.02 18:46. Thane@Cawdor.Net wrote: >On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 09:40:38 +1000, John Fitzsimons >wrote: >>>On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 18:51:58 GMT, 'Paragon' >>wrote: >>>>>>>==================================================== >>>'Andy Mabbett' wrote in message >>>>Sign Amnesty International's petition - stop the USA from violating >>>>International Law by obtaining war crime impunity agreements: >>>>>>>>>Just LOVE your tag line.

So that lurkers from two-bit has-been >>>nations can rattle their jealousies over U.S. Taking the moral lead. >>>>>>>>'Moral lead'?

'First strike' attacking of Iran is perhaps a 'moral >>lead'? >>I think you mean Iraq genius. {snip] No doubt a typo. He's obviously suggesting that Bush is right out of line, suggesting military action against the Iraqi dictator.

Bush is clearly way off the mark; same as that Winston Watsisname in the 1930s - the lone voice carrying those unsubstantiated rantings about the new German chancellor. Now, what was his name? Adolf someone or other? Alan Alan 22.09.02 18:54. Wrote: >>No, it doesn't. As >>CDware-not-also-available-for-download, it isn't freeware, and your >>little scheme no more excuses this than if one tried to sell MS Word >>in here *by simply not saying 'freeware'*, as you are suggesting.

>>Not *saying* 'freeware' doesn't change that fact at all -- it's still >>nonfreeware in a freeware group. >>But you actually bought the retail version. Others bought a magazine >and got the great program to boot. >>These are somehow the same?

Yes, these are the same *somehow*; the 'somehow' being that neither constitutes freeware. Recommending the magazine CD version in this group is therefore 'the same' as recommending the retail version. Both are off topic.

Alan Alan 22.09.02 19:09. GeoThermal wrote: >>*To me* PSP 5 available as a full product on the cover CD of a >magazine I occasionally buy anyway, is freeware.

It might not be >freeware in the sense of this newsgroup, and I'm not questioning or >complaining about that in any way as I appreciate the group has set >guidelines on this. However if this is not a suitable place to post >about obtaining an excellent piece of software 'free' then I'd >suggest something like alt.comp.free.software as otherwise we could >miss out on some great software. >>Just my (I hope balanced) opinion.:-) It sounds like a good & balanced solution on paper. Unfortunately, it probably won't work. When adware & spyware reared their ugly heads, newsgroups were started specifically for such software. They never amounted to much, and people have reverted to littering alt.comp.freeware with these (OT) posts again?

Because it's a popular group? Because it's largely devoid of off topic posts. See the problem? I agree that your solution is a good one, but I fear it will go the way of the other similar attempts. Alan Alan 22.09.02 19:20.

Snapper wrote: >>It's tempting to speculate that you chose to name yourself after a >shark because that species has scarcely evolved at all since the >Miocene era some 15 million years ago. Unfortunately for you, the >internet, and the Usenet in particular, is no place for inflexible, >narrow-minded dinosaurs who cling desperately to the past and resist >every kind of change. >>People here currently want to know about all aspects of freeware - >including news of those programs that are newly being offered free by >magazines. If that doesn't suit you and your fellow dinosaurs, then I >suggest you retract your reptilian heads back beneath the surface of >the primal swamp and make way for the rest of us. Interesting aside. The sharks of the modern era eat snapper for breakfast:) They also seem to have had the 'right stuff' for survival for a long time, while lesser species came & went. Maybe they don't need to evolve any further?

Perhaps they've hit the ultimate in perfect adaptation, and just the right balance? Alan Alan 22.09.02 19:37. On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 21:00:45 -0400, Thane@Cawdor.Net wrote: >On 22 Sep 2002 20:45:05 GMT, Blinky the Shark >wrote: >>>On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 13:28:47 -0400, Thane@Cawdor.Net wrote: >>>On Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:10:56 +0100, 'GeoThermal' >>>wrote: >>>>>>>' wrote in message >>>>news:accmou8g0cnq7g62b47vv41rp6le90ll02@4ax.com. >>>>>Just to let you know. >>>>>>>>>>The full version of PSP 5 has been included with the October edition >>>>>of PC Format Magazine in the UK. No restrictions, nags or timeouts. >>>>>a nice program.

>>>>>>>>Thanks for that. Always liked PSP. >>>>>>>>>>Considering I can get the magazine here in the USA for $13.95 at >>>>Well, then, I guess it wasn't freeware, then, was it? >>Yep, its free, you pay for the magazine >>>>>>I can't believe there's a nearly 100 post thread bitching about >>>somebody pointing this out. Considering the savings involved the >>>original poster just did a lot of folks a public service, I know I >>>passed the info to several of my freinds already >>>>Yep, it was cheapware. Now, about its freeware status -- please provide >>a link where it can be downloaded with its freeware license. >>But downloading it means using electricity to run the computer.so >its not free even then is it?

You're not the first person to make that extremely silly claim. One could similarly argue that *nothing* is free, because humans have to eat, and through one or another mechanism (working for wages or doing the work of foraging, farming or hunting) they must pay for their nourishment.

>>Then it'll >>be freeware. That *will* be a 'public service'. >>>Why don't you do us all a public service and get a fucking life?

Or is Got one. And I'll be here, as well -- longer than you will. >being a prick on USENET the closest you have to something to make you No, pricks are the kid of folks who call other people pricks that have not been been insulting, much less resorted to childish name-calling. >feel important? It's free enough, you pay for the magazine. If that >ain't good enough for you tough shit.

LIS, you put it up somewhere so it can be downloaded free, with its freeware license, then it will be freeware. In the meantime, it's not, and there's really nothing (short of that suggestion) that you can do to make it freeware -- not even your foot stomping and tantrums.

-- Blinky Allan Evans 22.09.02 21:23. On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:23:30 +1000, Allan Evans wrote: >In, >Blinky the Shark banged out this: >Besides, when you live on the underside of the world, the blood's >always rushing to your head, and it makes you woozy.;) >Underside of the world in relation to what exactly? The way they draw maps. >As you should realise, the universe is infinite, thusly there is no 'top' or >'bottom' to it. >Think about it;-) Yeah, I went to school, too.

Look back there at my smilie. -- Blinky Blinky the Shark 22.09.02 23:31.

In article, says. That was British Intelligence 'disinformation.'

The same as the campaign against Saddam in Iraq. Yes, he *is* a horrible dictator, but all that's beside the point that many thousands of people will die so that American oil companies can turn a profit. Since the embargo started, over half a million children under the age of 5 have died as a result. It continue today at a rate of 4,500 each month.

Compare that to 911. -- Regards, Uncle Fred, (Fred Williams) (remove upper case letters, SPOOF, to reply Yes, you leave the 2 in my email address). Zo 23.09.02 04:44. >>>No, it doesn't. As >>>CDware-not-also-available-for-download, it isn't freeware, and your >>>little scheme no more excuses this than if one tried to sell MS Word >>>in >>>here *by simply not saying 'freeware'*, as you are suggesting. Not >>>*saying* 'freeware' doesn't change that fact at all -- it's still >>>nonfreeware in a freeware group. >>But you actually bought the retail version.

Others bought a magazine >>and got the great program to boot. >>These are somehow the same? >Your point, if you have one, is unclear.

Things have changed. What you shelled out bucks for can now be had by buying a magazine and is well worth mention here. Free is what he said and it is free IF you buy that magazine. I hope we'll have a similar opportunity here soon.

I'll buy the mag and get me a free copy of the program. I'd never have considered the prospect had the OP not pointed out what I consider valuable news. I don't pay much attention to magazines, but now I'll be looking at them now. The point: Ease up a tad. It was a positive post meant to inform anyone interested that a quality commercial program can be had. I'm sure he had no intention of starting a 100+ thread debating the merit of each word he wrote.

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- REMbr.@inu.net 23.09.02 04:55. >'Other forms of freeware'? Doesn't compute. Freeware is freeware.

>That's the point.:START The point is everyone has their own definition of freeware. Some people have very similar views.

Others do not. GOTO START Everyone has their own definition of a positive and valuable post too. The original post qualifies in my book as positive and valuable. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers!

=----- REMbr.@inu.net 23.09.02 05:39. >>Adolf Schicklegrubber I believe. (or some such Austrian spelling) >That was British Intelligence 'disinformation.' The same as >the campaign against Saddam in Iraq. Yes, he *is* a horrible >dictator, but all that's beside the point that many thousands of >people will die so that American oil companies can turn a profit.

It's much more than just that Fred. We have a flagging economy and a war is the best thing to jump start it. Popularity ratings were slipping badly until he fanned the flames of hatred timed to coincide with 9-11. Unfortunately he was successful it would seem. Then there is the 'wimp' factor. He has a hard on to redeem the family name. What can you expect from a man who appreciates state execution of pretty much anyone anytime.

>Since the embargo started, over half a million children under >the age of 5 have died as a result. It continue today at a rate of >4,500 each month. Compare that to 911. There is no evidence Iraq has anything at all to do with terrorism. It is too easy to fail to realize this and tie the two events together.

I think there are multiple equivalents to 'Adolf' today and it is a very scary scenario. Fate scorned us all when Florida dropped the ball. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers!

=----- Signpoet 23.09.02 06:17. >>>You can have my car stereo for free -- you just have to buy my car. >>If you had a $1000 stereo in a $200 car, someone probably would.

>It's still just value added to the sale. It doesn't make the stereo >free. Hey, didn't you just request me to post about freeware? It's difficult not to add your thoughts sometime isn't it? -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers!

=----- Lordy 23.09.02 07:00. Uncle Fred wrote: >In article, >says. >>On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 11:46:33 +1000, ' Alan' >>wrote: >>>>>>>the new German chancellor.

Now, what was his name? Adolf someone or >>>other? >>>>>>Alan >>>>>>>Adolf Schicklegrubber I believe. (or some such Austrian spelling) >>>That was British Intelligence 'disinformation.'

The same as >the campaign against Saddam in Iraq. What bit was 'disinformation'? The suggestion that this little Adolf chappie might cause rather more trouble than the inept politicians of the day cared to contemplate? And this is the same with Iraq is it?

Oh well - no need to worry at all then. Yes, he *is* a horrible >dictator, but all that's beside the point that many thousands of >people will die so that American oil companies can turn a profit. >Since the embargo started, over half a million children under >the age of 5 have died as a result. It continue today at a rate of >4,500 each month.

Compare that to 911. All of the money given to the Iraqi government, intended for humanitarian purposes, was spent by the dictator on yachts, palaces and WMD. That's why 'food for oil' had to be devised - especially for this a%^$hole. You're right about one thing though - embargoes are of no use at all against a government that is not only prepared to let its own people starve, but is willing to use its BCN weapons against them too. So what's *your* suggestion? Close our eyes and hope it all goes away?

Alan John Corliss 23.09.02 07:20. Paul Batchie wrote: >John Corliss wrote: >>Paul Batchie wrote: >>>David_B wrote: >>>>>>>That's why I posted the news here. I acknowledge now that this was a >>>>mistake, >>>>>>I'm not sure it was. I care less about the technical definitions >>>(plural intended) of freeware than about the usefulness of a >>>post.

To some, at least, the magazine offer will in fact amount >>>to freeware. >>>>Paul, the group has voted on this exact issue and the following is the >>majority opinion: >>>>'CDWare - this is software that is included on CDs that come with >>magazines. If the software is freeware that is freely downloadable from >>the internet, then it is okay to recommend it as a solution to a software >>need. A link to the download site should be provided when recommending it >>as a software solution. If there is no download site available, then it >>should not be recommended as a solution to a software need in >>alt.comp.freeware for two reasons: first, you MUST purchase the magazine >>to obtain the CD.

Secondly, such software on most 'free' CDs usually may >>not be freely distributed according to the EULA (end user licensing >>agreement.)' >>>>Allowing the dillution of the definition of freeware does this group a >>disservice by cluttering it up with off topic threads. If this process is >>allowed to go unchecked, eventually the group will become like what I have >>seen other groups turn into: totally nothing about freeware in it. >>Some people can't seem to grasp this notion and object to 'being told >>what to say or do', but they are missing the point.

Being as this is an >>unmoderated group, it is up to the regulars to do what they can to make >>sure the group stays on-topic. >>Thanks, John. I'm far from convinced that such a narrow approach best serves >the greatest number of people. As you say, the group is unmoderated. As such, >there is no definite authority and my feeling is that wider latitude should be >allowed than in a moderated forum that wishes to be more strict. Then let's just start talking about anything that comes to mind. Let's fill the group up with posts about commercial software, shareware, adware, viruses, motorcycles, fishing, spam, porno.

You also are missing the point entirely. >If I were in the market for PSP, I would have been very happy to see the >announcement, and I can't think of a better group for such things. I am sure that from a personal perspective, you would be happy to see such an announcement, but that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that this group is named ALT.COMP.FREEWARE and is intended for nothing but the discussion of freeware.

What part of that don't you understand? -- John Corliss People (eg. Andy Mabbett) whose messages to alt.comp.freeware I am filtering out and cannot see: alt.comp.freeware F.A.Q.: My 'favorite freeware' page: Harvey V 23.09.02 07:30. Wrote in message news:3d8f18de.2864200@news.inu.net. >>It's still just value added to the sale. It doesn't make the stereo >>free. >>Hey, didn't you just request me to post about freeware?

The difference is that most of /my/ posts are freeware-related. The specific post, which prompted me to ask you to concentrate on freeware, was nothing more than a sad dig at John Corliss. /This/ part of the thread does have some connection with the topic as it deals with the group.

-- rhexis REMbr.@inu.net 23.09.02 08:02. >>Hey, didn't you just request me to post about freeware? >The difference is that most of /my/ posts are freeware-related. The >specific post, which prompted me to ask you to concentrate on >freeware, was nothing more than a sad dig at John Corliss. You do manage to work your opinions in nicely too.

I failed to specify; John refers to John Fitzsimmons who made the comment about 'pointless' threads. I commented, someone else commented and then you commented. (I hope I spelled his name right) There are no sad digs intended.

It was simply a thread I thought anyone reading, much less replying to, would have followed successfully. I should have (and will in the future) try to be more specific to avoid such confusion. Calling by last names doesn't seem quite fitting for some reason. It sounds disrespectful given the degree of disagreement. It's simply an exchange of ideals in the form of keystrokes though and (even if it seems otherwise) I have no personal feelings of ill will for anyone. As a matter of fact it'd probably be a hoot to have a few brews with John Corliss. I'd give him a hard time and I'm sure he'd give me a hard time and we'd probably laugh to sunrise or so.

I still disagree with him in most respects and the only space we share is here. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- fD 23.09.02 09:31.

'Randy H' wrote in news:amns63$7h0kl$: What's wrong with the following statement? 'This statement is false.' Any idea why it applies? Probably not. So here's a basic explanation.

There are subsets of categories which defy logic (Russell's paradox). Since we know this, we have to group our categories into practical subsets which allow for us to function without everyone scratching their heads and going, 'huh?' .kinda like what you're doing now. If you want to extrapolate the concept of 'free' for the category of 'manufactured items' as far as it goes, then you'll find that *nothing* is free.

Given that this group exists only because computers and the internet exists, there are some 'givens.' One such is that the concept of 'free' necessarily *excludes* those factors which are required to use a computer.namely, a power source. This only applies, of course, if you are interested in the subject of this group.namely, freeware.which is software.which cannot function (at least as it was designed to) without a computer, which again, requires a power source, which, as you so adroitly and pointlessly (given the parameters of the group content) indicated, is not truly 'free.' -- Tiger *Remove yourclothes. To reply via email Meself 23.09.02 13:34. Tiger wrote in news:Xns9292A7AAE20B0jefscrrcom@: >This only applies, of course, if you are interested in the subject of >this group.namely, freeware.which is software.which cannot >function (at least as it was designed to) without a computer, which >again, requires a power source, which, as you so adroitly and >pointlessly (given the parameters of the group content) indicated, is >not truly 'free.' >>Understand?

>Not that I want to put words in Randy's mouth, but my guess would be 'no'. -- (Bob: remove the spam and e me @ ) Jim @ UsableFreeware.com 23.09.02 13:39. Tiger wrote in >Probably not. So here's a basic explanation. There are subsets of categories >which defy logic Russell's paradox. Since we know this, we have to group our >categories into practical subsets which allow for us to function without >everyone scratching their heads and going, huh?kinda like what you're doing >now.

And this applies for freeware as well. There are subsets of freeware.

Such as adware, cdware, liteware, nagware and so on. --- This post was anonymized at --- Tiger 23.09.02 14:17. Xganon wrote in: >Tiger wrote in >>Probably not. So here's a basic explanation. There are subsets of >>categories >which defy logic Russell's paradox.

Since we know >>this, we have to group our >categories into practical subsets >>which allow for us to function without >everyone scratching their >>heads and going, huh?kinda like what you're doing >now. >and this applies for freeware as well. There are subsets of >freeware.

Such as adware, cdware, liteware, nagware and so on. >Can you say 'whoosh!' Obviously, the 'probably not' crowd has spoken.and in this case, 'probably' doesn't apply.

-- Tiger *Remove yourclothes. To reply via email REMbr.@inu.net 23.09.02 14:20.

>>>>>>There is no evidence Iraq has anything at all to do with terrorism. I cannot tell which you are referring to here Jim. Let's take this one. The obvious context is the current US war on terrorism.

Can you cite anything that links Iraq to these terrorist camps, networks, financing, individual terrorists or any terrorism outside the country of Iraq? List your view of propaganda also please. >Cheers >JimSP >'Lighten up or you'll die sick and young' Good advise! -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers!

=----- GeoThermal 23.09.02 15:28. 'rhexis' wrote in message news:3d8f163a$0$49425$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk. >'Signpoet' wrote in message >news:1731.5188@mb-cc.aol.com. >>>Could someone tell me about PaintShop? Inquiring minds want to know.

>>It's a shareware bitmap editor made by a company called Jasc. >Their site is.

>>If you don't want to buy a magazine to get this for 'free', you can >download the editor called GIMP instead. It's free and quite good >(albeit a little untraditional). Yeah I find PSP more intuitive.

Paul Lutus 23.09.02 15:32. Xganon wrote: >Tiger wrote in >>Probably not. So here's a basic explanation. There are subsets of >>categories >which defy logic Russell's paradox. Since we know this, we >>have to group our >categories into practical subsets which allow for us to >>function without >everyone scratching their heads and going, huh?kinda >>like what you're doing >now. >and this applies for freeware as well. There are subsets of freeware.

Such >as adware, cdware, liteware, nagware and so on. And is 'costs-a-lot-ware' a subset also?

No, there's freeware, and then there's the other categories you listed. Freeware means exactly what it says. Adware is not freeware, because it's not free -- advertisements exact a cost in time, usability and annoyance.

Nagware, the same. CDware is free only if they mail you the CD for free, and only if you can post what's on the CD to the net. Expireware is not free. It's expireware -- it tries to make you dependent on it, then it demands payment. It is a form of free-trial marketing.

And why do I care about this? Because I really do write freeware, and I resent people who try to weasel-word the definition. There is only one freeware. It is software that doesn't cost you anything, and that doesn't do things like flash advertisements in your face, or try to make you guilty for having a 'free' program, or expire. If you download one of my programs, that makes me happy. If you like it, happier still.

If you make copies for all your friends, happier still. I will never be in your face, and I will never flash advertisements for anything. No reminders, no expiration dialogs, no annoyances. That is freeware. Everything else is sleazy marketing of one kind or another.

-- Paul Lutus Henk de Jong 23.09.02 15:37. Paul Lutus schreef in: >>And is 'costs-a-lot-ware' a subset also? No, there's freeware, and >then there's the other categories you listed. Freeware means exactly >what it says. >>Adware is not freeware, because it's not free -- advertisements exact >a cost in time, usability and annoyance.

Nagware, the same. CDware is >free only if they mail you the CD for free, and only if you can post >what's on the CD to the net. >>Expireware is not free. It's expireware -- it tries to make you >dependent on it, then it demands payment. It is a form of free-trial >marketing. >>And why do I care about this?

Because I really do write freeware, and >I resent people who try to weasel-word the definition. >>There is only one freeware. It is software that doesn't cost you >anything, and that doesn't do things like flash advertisements in your >face, or try to make you guilty for having a 'free' program, or >expire.

>>If you download one of my programs, that makes me happy. If you like >it, happier still. If you make copies for all your friends, happier >still. I will never be in your face, and I will never flash >advertisements for anything. No reminders, no expiration dialogs, no >annoyances.

>>That is freeware. Everything else is sleazy marketing of one kind or >another. >Paul, Please give me permission to add something to what you said (and which I fully agree with): freeware is, besides what you already said, also available for everybody. Everybody can download freeware when he/she wishes to do so, CD-ware is not available for everyone (only those people who are able to buy the magazine have access to that software).

With kind regards, -- Henk de Jong The Netherlands (remove NOSPAM) 'Links to Freeware' John Vernon 23.09.02 15:50. Henk de Jong wrote: [.

] >>If you download one of my programs, that makes me happy. If you like >>it, happier still. If you make copies for all your friends, happier >>still. I will never be in your face, and I will never flash >>advertisements for anything.

No reminders, no expiration dialogs, no >>annoyances. >>>>That is freeware.

Everything else is sleazy marketing of one kind or >>another. >>>Paul, >Please give me permission to add something to what you said (and which I >fully agree with): freeware is, besides what you already said, also >available for everybody. Everybody can download freeware when he/she >wishes to do so, CD-ware is not available for everyone (only those people >who are able to buy the magazine have access to that software). I concur, and I think I sort of said this.

Freeware must be on the net or in some other freely available forum. -- Paul Lutus Paul Lutus 23.09.02 16:21. On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:32:19 -0700, Paul Lutus wrote: >And is 'costs-a-lot-ware' a subset also? No, there's freeware, and then >there's the other categories you listed.

Freeware means exactly what it >says. >>Adware is not freeware, because it's not free -- advertisements exact a cost >in time, usability and annoyance. Nagware, the same. CDware is free only if >they mail you the CD for free, and only if you can post what's on the CD to >the net. >>Expireware is not free. It's expireware -- it tries to make you dependent on >it, then it demands payment. It is a form of free-trial marketing.

>>And why do I care about this? Because I really do write freeware, and I >resent people who try to weasel-word the definition. >>There is only one freeware. It is software that doesn't cost you anything, >and that doesn't do things like flash advertisements in your face, or try >to make you guilty for having a 'free' program, or expire. >>If you download one of my programs, that makes me happy. If you like it, >happier still.

If you make copies for all your friends, happier still. I >will never be in your face, and I will never flash advertisements for >anything.

No reminders, no expiration dialogs, no annoyances. >>That is freeware. Everything else is sleazy marketing of one kind or >another. Given the author's credentials, I'd consider that an authoritative definition of freeware.

Regards, -- Steve ( out in the sticks ) Email: anyoldname(*AT*)gmx(*dot*)co(*dot*)uk Tiger 23.09.02 17:13. On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 20:50:22 GMT, Tiger wrote: >'Jim @ UsableFreeware.com' wrote in >news:GZKj9.398351$: >>>In news:amns63$7h0kl$, >>Randy H babbled incoherently: >>>'Blinky the Shark' wrote in message >>>news:amlt44029vj@enews4.newsguy.com.

>>>>On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 21:00:45 -0400, Thane@Cawdor.Net wrote: >>>>>>>>But downloading it means using electricity to run the >>>>>computer.so its not free even then is it? >>>>>>>>You're not the first person to make that extremely silly claim. >>>>>>So electricity is free where you live?

Are you in prison or are >>>your parents paying for it? >>>>Everyone in this newsgroup has electricity. We all have a >>computer. We all have Internet access, however fast or slow. And I pay for all of them too >>However, not everyone here is subscribed to the aforementioned >>magazine with the 'free' software on it. Most of us would have to >>shell out $ for the magazine, and that is not free.

Neither is my electricty >>>>It's really very simple. Nitpicking about whether we pay for >>electricity is silly. Only because it suits your purposes to ignore the fact >>>Yes, I said the same thing, but my reply was more.flowery:) Blinky the Shark 23.09.02 16:54. On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 07:17:36 -0400, Uncle Fred wrote: >The same as >the campaign against Saddam in Iraq. Yes, he *is* a horrible >dictator, but all that's beside the point that many thousands of >people will die so that American oil companies can turn a profit. Could that be? But aren't the Americans attacking because he has 'weapons of mass destruction'?

Then why aren't they attacking Israel? Maybe it's because Iraq is being run by a dictator? Then why aren't they attacking Pakistan? Maybe it's because he has ignored UN 'resolutions'? Then why aren't they attacking Israel? Maybe it's because Iraq isn't 'democratic'?

Then why aren't they attacking China? Maybe it's because they are threatening their neighbours? Then why aren't they attacking India? Maybe you are right.:-) John Fitzsimons 23.09.02 17:26.

On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 11:46:33 +1000, ' Alan' wrote: >Thane@Cawdor.Net wrote: >>On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 09:40:38 +1000, John Fitzsimons >>wrote: >>>'Moral lead'? 'First strike' attacking of Iran is perhaps a 'moral >>>lead'? >>I think you mean Iraq genius.

>{snip] >No doubt a typo. He's obviously suggesting that Bush is right out of >line, suggesting military action against the Iraqi dictator. I am not suggesting that at all. Try reading the first two words of the second sentence. It might help your comprehension. To take part of an article on the German elections 'out of context' (at ) my suggestion would be more along the lines of; 'peace and security is best kept by coalitions of nations acting within the boundaries of international law.'

And 'Should it really surprise us that Germans, indoctrinated and shamed by their own past, should be alarmed when a single dominant power thinks its own interests suddenly outweigh those of all other nations combined?' >Bush is clearly way off the mark; Yep. >same as that Winston Watsisname in the >1930s You need to read your history books.

Winston was *against* the invasion of small countries by a larger, more militarily stronger, country. You have your facts back to front. >- the lone voice carrying those unsubstantiated rantings about >the new German chancellor. Now, what was his name?

Adolf someone or >other? That guy Adolf attacked weaker countries too. I suppose Bush could be, and has been, compared to Hitler in the sense that they were both happy to use 'first strike' tactics.

Particularly against weaker countries. I suppose you want Bush to attack China too eh?

After all, they have 'weapons of mass destruction'. 'Iran' may have been a 'typo' but as Iran could well be next after Iraq it might not be so far off base. Regards, John. Tiger 23.09.02 17:15. On 23 Sep 2002 02:09:08 GMT, Blinky the Shark wrote: >>>>Considering I can get the magazine here in the USA for $13.95 at >>>>>>Well, then, I guess it wasn't freeware, then, was it?

>>>>Yep, its free, you pay for the magazine >>>>>>>>>I can't believe there's a nearly 100 post thread bitching about >>>>somebody pointing this out. Considering the savings involved the >>>>original poster just did a lot of folks a public service, I know I >>>>passed the info to several of my freinds already >>>>>>Yep, it was cheapware. Now, about its freeware status -- please provide >>>a link where it can be downloaded with its freeware license. >>>>But downloading it means using electricity to run the computer.so >>its not free even then is it?

>>You're not the first person to make that extremely silly claim. One could >similarly argue that *nothing* is free, because humans have to eat, and >through one or another mechanism (working for wages or doing the work of >foraging, farming or hunting) they must pay for their nourishment. I will have to say that I feel both sides have valid points.

I do lean toward the point that if someone posted valuable information, which in my estimate includes information which implies that something in the near future may very well become freeware, and has no connection to the software, that it is not entirely off topic. It is important to keep the noise down to a certain degree, but one can be so anal about this that it will discourage posts that might otherwise be valid and/or valuable. In my opinion not to be flexible enough to 'overlook' a post like this, might imply other motives are involved. --------------------------------------- What could possibly go wrong? Paul Batchie 23.09.02 18:00.

John Corliss wrote: >>Thanks, John. I'm far from convinced that such a narrow approach best serves >>the greatest number of people. As you say, the group is unmoderated. As such, >>there is no definite authority and my feeling is that wider latitude should be >>allowed than in a moderated forum that wishes to be more strict.

>>Then let's just start talking about anything that comes to mind. Let's fill the >group up with posts about commercial software, shareware, adware, viruses, >motorcycles, fishing, spam, porno. No, let's continue to talk about software that's free, but in all that that word connotes. In this instance, for those who would buy the magazine anyway, getting a program tagged on amounts to it being free.

So it could be considered free for some - probably a relative few - but not for others. I support a helpful working definition of 'freeware' that avoids being legalistic yet prevents abuse.

I believe this example would fall within its parameters. >You also are missing the point entirely. >>>If I were in the market for PSP, I would have been very happy to see the >>announcement, and I can't think of a better group for such things. >>I am sure that from a personal perspective, you would be happy to see such an >announcement, but that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that this group >is named ALT.COMP.FREEWARE and is intended for nothing but the discussion of >freeware.

What part of that don't you understand? No, actually it's named alt.comp.freeware, since lower case is used on usenet. IOW, I suggest we would do well to keep a civil tone and avoid personal digs. It's not a question of some here not understanding what freeware is; it's a question of people here holding divergent definitions - which is an entirely different matter. -- Paul Batchie Jim @ UsableFreeware.com 23.09.02 18:01. 'Thane@Cawdor.Net' wrote in t: >>>It's really very simple.

Nitpicking about whether we pay for >>>electricity is silly. >>Only because it suits your purposes to ignore the fact >Well of course it suits his purposes.

He's here to discuss freeware. Freeware is software which needs a computer to do that which it was designed to do. Computers need power. We all know that. It would also be reasonable to consider 'silly' an argument that stolen software should be considered 'freeware' simply because it can be had for nothing. Or how about this.' Time is money' and therefore *no* software that is downloaded from the internet is truly 'freeware.'

That, in the context of this newsgroup, is a silly argument. Now.what's *your* purpose?

-- Tiger *Remove yourclothes. To reply via email Blinky the Shark 23.09.02 18:48. On Tue, 24 Sep 2002 00:13:12 GMT, Tiger wrote: >Blinky the Shark wrote in >: >>>On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 20:48:54 GMT, Tiger wrote: >>>Ahhh, the beauty of philosophy is its inherent duality: it both >>>obfuscates and clarifies. What it does for the individual, >>>depends on the individual:) >>>>It makes me crave a chocolate malted. That may be off the curve, >>but it's at least a harmless reaction.

>Sheesh, I woulda thunk it would at least give you a craving for >something a bit more *meaty.* Wasn't aware that chocolate malteds >were on a shark's menu. 1) Everybody gets dessert once in a while. 2) Variety is the Spice Girl of life. 3) All work and no play makes Jack a dull shark.

4) All of the above. Give me a nice hunk 'o venison and I'm happy.

Been a while; sounds good. -- Blinky Blinky the Shark 23.09.02 18:55.

On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:00:33 -0400, Paul Batchie wrote: >John Corliss wrote: >>>>Thanks, John. I'm far from convinced that such a narrow approach best serves >>>the greatest number of people. As you say, the group is unmoderated. As such, >>>there is no definite authority and my feeling is that wider latitude should be >>>allowed than in a moderated forum that wishes to be more strict. >>>>Then let's just start talking about anything that comes to mind. Let's fill the >>group up with posts about commercial software, shareware, adware, viruses, >>motorcycles, fishing, spam, porno. >>No, let's continue to talk about software that's free, but in all >that that word connotes.

In this instance, for those who would >buy the magazine anyway, getting a program tagged on amounts to >it being free. So it could be considered free for some - probably Somebody gave me a free, legal copy of Windows 95.

Guess that's freeware, now. I didn't pay for it.

Let's open this place up, huh? Here's another place with some good stuff: I didn't pay very much for mine, so, well, you know -- that's close enough. After all, who wants to be anal, eh?

I mean, really -- it only cost me what -- a half-hour's pay. In fact, I have and older copy that was *given* to me, and that's *FREE*! So it must be freeware. -- Blinky Uncle Fred 23.09.02 19:12. In article, says.

>On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 07:17:36 -0400, Uncle Fred >wrote: >>>>>The same as >>the campaign against Saddam in Iraq. Yes, he *is* a horrible >>dictator, but all that's beside the point that many thousands of >>people will die so that American oil companies can turn a profit. >>>>Could that be?

But aren't the Americans attacking because he has >'weapons of mass destruction'? >Then again. Maybe you are right.:-) >Oh WOW!

This may go right to my head. (:-)) I could rant on, but this is a Freeware newsgroup and I'll shut up about it now. Fred Williams Uncle Fred 23.09.02 19:24. In article, says. >John Corliss wrote: >>>>Thanks, John.

I'm far from convinced that such a narrow approach best serves >>>the greatest number of people. As you say, the group is unmoderated.

As such, >>>there is no definite authority and my feeling is that wider latitude should be >>>allowed than in a moderated forum that wishes to be more strict. >>>>Then let's just start talking about anything that comes to mind. Let's fill the >>group up with posts about commercial software, shareware, adware, viruses, >>motorcycles, fishing, spam, porno. >>No, let's continue to talk about software that's free, but in all >that that word connotes. In this instance, for those who would >buy the magazine anyway, getting a program tagged on amounts to >it being free. I don't come hear to read about what other people can get for free but I can't. That is a waste of my time, sort of like this thread.

I also don't expect other people to be tremendously interested in software that I can get for free and they can't. So the narrow definition of Freeware serves a very utilitarian purpose. It helps us not waste each other's time! Regards, Fred Williams Tiger 23.09.02 19:42. Blinky the Shark wrote in: >On Tue, 24 Sep 2002 00:13:12 GMT, Tiger wrote: >>Blinky the Shark wrote in >>: >>>>>On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 20:48:54 GMT, Tiger wrote: >>>>>Ahhh, the beauty of philosophy is its inherent duality: it >>>>both obfuscates and clarifies. What it does for the >>>>individual, depends on the individual:) >>>>>>It makes me crave a chocolate malted. That may be off the >>>curve, but it's at least a harmless reaction.

>>>Sheesh, I woulda thunk it would at least give you a craving for >>something a bit more *meaty.* Wasn't aware that chocolate >>malteds were on a shark's menu. >>1) Everybody gets dessert once in a while. >>2) Variety is the Spice Girl of life. >>3) All work and no play makes Jack a dull shark. >>4) All of the above. Was that a test? Give me a nice hunk 'o venison and I'm happy.

>>Been a while; sounds good. >Yeah, them salt-water deer are rare. -- Tiger *Remove yourclothes. To reply via email Alan 23.09.02 19:43. John Fitzsimons wrote: >On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 11:46:33 +1000, ' Alan' >wrote: >>>Thane@Cawdor.Net wrote: >>>On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 09:40:38 +1000, John Fitzsimons >>>wrote: >>>>>>>'Moral lead'? 'First strike' attacking of Iran is perhaps a 'moral >>>>lead'?

>>>>I think you mean Iraq genius. >>>{snip] >>>No doubt a typo.

He's obviously suggesting that Bush is right out of >>line, suggesting military action against the Iraqi dictator. >>I am not suggesting that at all. Try reading the first two words of >the second sentence. It might help your comprehension.

'First strike'? Is this the bit I don't comprehend? The alternatives seem to be 'retaliatory strike' or 'no strike'. I presume then that you either approve of waiting for Iraq to use its WMD first, then taking action or leaving it all in the capable hands of the League of Nations debating society.

Er, I mean the UN. And therefore taking no action at all regardless of what Iraq does. Personally, I don't relish the alternatives. >>To take part of an article on the German elections 'out of context' >(at ) my >suggestion would be more along the lines of; >>'peace and security is best kept by coalitions of nations acting >within the boundaries of international law.'

This is all well & good if everybody plays the same game by the same rules, and if the body behind the international law has any punch (read military capability and willingness) to enforce them. Without this, it's like laws within society without police - totally ineffective and not even worth having.

>>'Should it really surprise us that Germans, indoctrinated and >shamed by their own past, should be alarmed when a single >dominant power thinks its own interests suddenly outweigh >those of all other nations combined?' Depends on your opinion of whether it's an American-centric stand or a stand against international terrorism. And this will always remain a matter of opinion. >>>Bush is clearly way off the mark; >>Yep. >>>same as that Winston Watsisname in the >>1930s >>You need to read your history books. Winston was *against* the >invasion of small countries by a larger, more militarily stronger, >country. You have your facts back to front.

Like Kuwait and Bahrain you mean? This is what I was referring to. It appears that the evil USA and the poor downtrodden Iraq have more in common than I'd realised.

>>- the lone voice carrying those unsubstantiated rantings about >>the new German chancellor. Now, what was his name? Adolf someone or >>other? >>That guy Adolf attacked weaker countries too. I suppose Bush could >be, and has been, compared to Hitler in the sense that they were both >happy to use 'first strike' tactics.

Particularly against weaker >countries. >I suppose you want Bush to attack China too eh? After all, they have >'weapons of mass destruction'. >>'Iran' may have been a 'typo' but as Iran could well be next after >Iraq it might not be so far off base. But this whole aside is way too off base to continue in a thread which is way off topic anyway. Feel free to counter my stand and qualifications, but I'm calling it quits here. Alan Alan 23.09.02 20:45.

Blinky the Shark wrote: >On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:50:18 GMT, John Vernon wrote: >>>Don't you folks think this subject has run its course! >>I'll treat that as a question, as it's worded as one.

The discussion >arises when nonfreeware is promoted as freeware. When it is no longer >misrepresented, the discussion will no longer be needed. I'd add that, despite the numerous comments that it's all a matter of opinion etc., this thread *has* served a useful purpose in bringing the *availability* issue to the fore. This has IMO not been considered as significant as Ad, Spy, Cripple etc.

In the past, but has now been shown to be of some import to lots of the users of ACF. I'd say the thread was worthwhile - others will beg to differ:) Alan oldfart 23.09.02 21:35. On Tue, 24 Sep 2002 04:35:15 GMT, oldfart wrote: >On 24 Sep 2002 01:45:35 GMT, Blinky the Shark >wrote: >>>On Tue, 24 Sep 2002 00:50:56 GMT, oldfart wrote: >>>>>thank full, and they can keep an eye out for it, or if they are a >>>decent type of person and have friends around the world, they might be >>>lucky and get a copy sent to them for being nice and respect full. >>>>And you want *that* to be the group definition of freeware: if you have >>the right friends, you might get a copy?

I think that definition >>warrants quite a bit of reconsideration. >yes you are right!!!! I have reconsider >you wouldn't be on my list. >regards >oldfart. Thanks, oldfart[1].

Depending on what the 'my list' comment means. [1]Don't believe I've ever addressed anyone that way before. -- Blinky point blank 22.09.02 11:23.

>Nobody is being forced to give any 'personal details' in any registration >process. >This is true. I doubt that the 'registration has anything to do with Jasc. Paint Shop Pro 5 does not ask for your name, serial number or anything else when you install it. I think it is the magazine, PC Format, that asks for your e-mail so they can inform you of special offers etc, but you can decline this by unchecking the box.

You still get to the screen with the password to unzip the zip file that contains PSP5 even if you write Mr Bugs Bunny. I thought it was interesting that the magazine states PSP5 is the program its designers use to resize and retouch their own photos for publication. I quote: 'For ease of use and the speed with which it carries out the tasks we require, it can't be touched.' Point blank 22.09.02 11:23. >>I think that when a quality program like PSP 5 temporarily becomes >available with some magazine, albeit only in restricted regios, it is >quite OK to make a one-time announcement in an [OT] labeled post.

>Agree with that. I've obtained some excellent 'free' programs from magazine cover disks. It's easy to miss them unless you browse the news stands on a regular basis, so flagging quality programs up here seems a good idea. I've been to Holland quite a few times (i'm from Northern Ireland btw, and love your country) and know that most of the UK magazines are widely available there. However, I thought most of the computer ones did not include a free CD when sold outside UK.

Have also noticed this during trips to USA, Germany, France, Spain etc. Plodda 24.09.02 01:53. 'Allan Evans' wrote in message news. >In, >Blinky the Shark banged out this: >On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 14:18:55 -0400, Thane@Cawdor.Net wrote: >>On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 09:40:38 +1000, John Fitzsimons >wrote: >>'Moral lead'? 'First strike' attacking of Iran is perhaps a 'moral >lead'? >>I think you mean Iraq genius. >>C'mon, it was just a typo.

>>No, wait a minute -- that's John F.' So what I *meant* to say, >was. >>John's pretty wrapped up in 'Australia Only' -- that's why he dislikes >Americans. The Mideast is not Australian *or* American, so it's even >further from his little neighborhood. >>Besides, when you live on the underside of the world, the blood's >always rushing to your head, and it makes you woozy.;) >>Underside of the world in relation to what exactly? The way they draw maps.

>As you should realise, the universe is infinite, thusly there is no 'top' or >'bottom' to it. >Think about it;-) At the bottom, or top, of Australia, is town in the State of Tasmania called Bagdad. Call me paranoid if you want but there is no way that I want to be within 3000k of it if George W gets his way. I wonder if my home in Perth is far enough away from it or the other place with the same sounding name? Paul Batchie 24.09.02 01:52. >>It was obvious that this person posted with honest intentions. The >Most of this hasn't even involved OP, if you follow along.

It's between >the usual 'because you can't stop me' trollage, and the regulars who try >to keep the group from becoming alt.comp.whateveryouwantware. It's >centered, this time, on PSP, because that just happens to be the >latest pet of the limited-distribution-CDware-sellers, but nobody's trying >to gore the OP. I count 213 posts in this thread. 41 are yours. Yours generated more replies than mine. --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Why do we have to spend so much time and effort arguing about the >>definiton of freeware? If people didn't jump in with 'that's off >>topic' messages then the thread would be small instead of ballooning >>into a 'yes it is no it isn't' kind of thing.

>1) No, it wouldn't. No it wouldn't? 213 posts generated from a perfectly innocent attempt to inform of an interesting development. That is ballooning. It also made its way into other threads. That is ballooning.

>2) If unchallenged, non-freeware would become the norm, and this would >be alt.comp.whatever-kind-of-ware. Silence is not golden; silence is >losing. Well, you have an interesting method of keeping the background noises down.

The thread would have long since faded had it been left as intended; a simple effort to contribute something interesting to the group. Sure, there might have been a few questions and a few oohs and ahhs. But that would be a thread that did not balloon. The OP said nothing about freeware.

It's pretty evident many found the info interesting and/or useful and many others got a wedgie from it. We're all different and this can be expected in most threads.

It's not a battle. It's not a war.

It's a newsgroup. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers!

=----- Paul Batchie 24.09.02 02:13. Uncle Fred wrote: >>No, let's continue to talk about software that's free, but in all >>that that word connotes. In this instance, for those who would >>buy the magazine anyway, getting a program tagged on amounts to >>it being free. >>I don't come hear to read about what other people can get >for free but I can't. That is a waste of my time, sort of like >this thread. I also don't expect other people to be tremendously >interested in software that I can get for free and they can't. So >the narrow definition of Freeware serves a very utilitarian >purpose.

It helps us not waste each other's time! This is a valid position, but one that must be tempered with the equally valid position of other people who would like to peruse special offers to find a deal that would suit them. IOW, this is a public forum, and not everyone has your strict interests. I got my copy of Delphi 5 attached, free, to a Delphi coding book which I purchased. I'm frankly not completely thrilled with the book, but nonetheless I'm glad I bought it, as the program was very valuable. I wouldn't have known about that offer if someone hadn't brought it to my attention. AISI, this forum is a suitable place for such mentions.

Perhaps a flag should be considered to alert people that the software being offered is not generically freeware, but instead is part of a special offer. Something like [Offer], or probably better, [SO]. -- Paul Batchie GeoThermal 24.09.02 02:13.

'GeoThermal' wrote in message news:YYXi9.9391$J47.740637@stones. >' wrote in message >news:accmou8g0cnq7g62b47vv41rp6le90ll02@4ax.com. >>Just to let you know. >>>>The full version of PSP 5 has been included with the October edition >>of PC Format Magazine in the UK. No restrictions, nags or timeouts. >>a nice program. >>Boy this has stirred up a right can of worms!:-) >>Anyway I was glad of the post and am off to get the magazine however I >emailed JASC and asked if they intend to make it available as a download.

>Will let you all know what they say. Received the following reply from Jasc: 'The only way version 5 would be available for download is if you have a previously purchased copy. We are now at version 7, so any new orders would be for this version. You can try an evaluation version of 7 from our website.'

So doesn't look like it's going to freeware in the sense of the group, but still a brilliant deal. Blinky the Shark 24.09.02 02:11.

On Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:53:02 GMT, wrote: >>>>It was obvious that this person posted with honest intentions. The >>>Most of this hasn't even involved OP, if you follow along. It's between >>the usual 'because you can't stop me' trollage, and the regulars who try >>to keep the group from becoming alt.comp.whateveryouwantware. It's >>centered, this time, on PSP, because that just happens to be the >>latest pet of the limited-distribution-CDware-sellers, but nobody's trying >>to gore the OP. >>I count 213 posts in this thread.

41 are yours. >>Yours generated more replies than mine. Less people probably have me killfiled. I also have a history of many more posts on freeware, than you do. But who's counting, eh? LIS, 'nobody's trying to gore the OP.'

True before your accounting exercise, true since. -- Blinky Blinky the Shark 24.09.02 02:08. >Less people probably have me killfiled. I also have a history of many >more posts on freeware, than you do.

But who's counting, eh? Maybe, maybe not on killfiling. If anyone prefers not to read what I have to add killfiling is a good solution. Ditto for you. You've been here longer so I do not doubt you have more freeware posts. I'll bet you also have more off topic posts too. I've had a great many chuckles from them.

It's not a contest and has nothing to do with you or I personally though. Neither of the above points has anything to do with the ballooning you denied and then proceeded to incite over a very innocent post to keep the group clean. >LIS, 'nobody's trying to gore the OP.' True before your accounting >exercise, true since. Accounting exercise. Elementary school lesson you don't need.

You are a bit overly defensive when someone makes a point back at you. It's really not all that serious and certainly not that personal.

I was referring to the 'plan of battle' you have selected. The entire paragraph was included for context.

I agree with Mike that silence can be golden in many situations and the numbers were just to demonstrate the observation I made in this thread. I didn't check in over the weekend and was floored when I saw the thread on Monday.

It was absolutely unbelievable considering the original post was four short lines of interesting news. Do as you wish.

I simply wanted to point out your plan might need some tweaking if your intent is to keep the group lean and clean. Coming to terms with the fact this is a newsgroup, rather than a battle ground or a personal BBS will help greatly. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- John Corliss 24.09.02 03:29. Paul Batchie wrote: >Uncle Fred wrote: >(clipped) >I got my copy of Delphi 5 attached, free, to a Delphi coding book >which I purchased.

I'm frankly not completely thrilled with the >book, but nonetheless I'm glad I bought it, as the program was >very valuable. I'm sure you were delighted, as would I be if I needed that software. However, this of course has nothing to do with acquiring freeware since you paid for the book and bought the program attached to it. You did *not* get the program for free. You purchased it with the book.

Now if the program was available on the internet as a freeware download, then yes, it would be on-topic in this group. >I wouldn't have known about that offer if someone >hadn't brought it to my attention. AISI, this forum is a suitable >place for such mentions.

And the majority of this group says that you are wrong. >Perhaps a flag should be considered to alert people that the >software being offered is not generically freeware, but instead >is part of a special offer.

Something like [Offer], or probably >better, [SO]. Or perhaps such things can be discussed elsewhere, since this group is for the discussion of freeware only- NOT 'not generically freeware'. -- Regards from John Corliss People (eg.

Andy Mabbett) whose messages to alt.comp.freeware I am filtering out and cannot see: alt.comp.freeware F.A.Q.: My 'favorite freeware' page: PB 24.09.02 03:39. Paul Batchie wrote: >John Corliss wrote: >>>>Thanks, John. I'm far from convinced that such a narrow approach best serves >>>the greatest number of people. As you say, the group is unmoderated. As such, >>>there is no definite authority and my feeling is that wider latitude should be >>>allowed than in a moderated forum that wishes to be more strict. >>>>Then let's just start talking about anything that comes to mind. Let's fill the >>group up with posts about commercial software, shareware, adware, viruses, >>motorcycles, fishing, spam, porno.

>>No, let's continue to talk about software that's free, but in all >that that word connotes. In this instance, for those who would >buy the magazine anyway, getting a program tagged on amounts to >it being free. No, it does not. You are buying the magazine and the CD as a package. If the CD was free, then I would be able to contact the magazine publisher and have them send me that CD with no shipping and handling charges. That just isn't going to happen.

>So it could be considered free for some - probably >a relative few - but not for others. I support a helpful working >definition of 'freeware' that avoids being legalistic yet >prevents abuse. There is nothing 'legalistic' about the definition of freeware in the F.A.Q.

That I wrote. Have you bothered to read it by the way? >I believe this example would fall within its parameters. No, it would not.

That is, unless you are refering to some other definition than the one the majority of this group has agreed upon. Painshop Pro 5 is not available as a freeware download anywhere on the internet (at least yet), thus it's not freeware. This group discussed the definition that I use in my version of the F.A.Q. And the result was a definition that reflects the majority views of this group.

In addition to that, as new types of 'near-freeware' came along, we have voted on modifications to that definition. Your view is a minority view. And what's wrong with a minority view you ask?

There is a minority that accepts pirated software as being legitimate freeware, there is a minority that thinks that shareware is on topic here (despite the fact that there is an alt.comp.shareware group and that shareware definitely is not freeware), etc. You are not the first minority viewholder who has come into this group and demanded that everybody start thinking the way you do. >>You also are missing the point entirely. >>>>>If I were in the market for PSP, I would have been very happy to see the >>>announcement, and I can't think of a better group for such things. >>>>I am sure that from a personal perspective, you would be happy to see such an >>announcement, but that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that this group >>is named ALT.COMP.FREEWARE and is intended for nothing but the discussion of >>freeware. What part of that don't you understand? >>No, actually it's named alt.comp.freeware, since lower case is used on usenet.

IOW, >I suggest we would do well to keep a civil tone and avoid personal digs. I just wanted to make sure that you were able to read the name of this group, since that seems to be something that you are overlooking.

It is not: alt.comp.near-freeware alt.comp.CDware alt.comp.shareware alt.comp.commercialware or alt.comp.warez >It's not a question of some here not understanding what freeware is; Oh yes, it most certainly is. >it's a question of people here holding divergent definitions - which is an entirely >different matter.

No, it's a question of whether or not this group is going to degenerate into a series of threads discussing non-freeware. When people come to this group to find a freeware solution, they are not looking for an answer that suggests a commercial software product or something that is only available if you buy a magazine. They are looking for a freeware solution. Recommending non-freeware solutions in this group is not only off-topic, but destructive to the group. However, most people think that I am against recommending non-freeware solutions to a software need in general, and that is simply not the case.

It's just that this group is not the place for such recommendations. There are two main ways to make such recommendations that don't clutter the group: 1. Email the person with the solution. If their address is unrepairably munged and your address is not, ask them to email you the correct one. If they refuse or you don't want to provide your email address, well that is understandable and totally acceptable. However it is simply the cost of privacy and is a personal decision.

In this case, solution 2 will work: 2. Refer the person to a more appropriate group, and-or post your solution there.

Posting non-freeware solutions in this group can, has and will lead to protracted threads on non-freeware discussions. This clutters the group with extraneous diversions that reduce the effectiveness of the group in general. I.e., if new people come here thinking that the group is for the discussion of freeware, only to find that it has degenerated into discussion of shareware, warez, commercial software, non-freeware CDWare (in essence, not available to them as freeware downloads on the internet), etc., they will move on. -- John Corliss People (eg. Andy Mabbett) whose messages to alt.comp.freeware I am filtering out and cannot see: alt.comp.freeware F.A.Q.: My 'favorite freeware' page: John Corliss 24.09.02 03:42. Point blank wrote: >>Nobody is being forced to give any 'personal details' in any registration >>process.

>>>This is true. I doubt that the 'registration has anything to do with >Jasc. Paint Shop Pro 5 does not ask for your name, serial number or >anything else when you install it.(clipped) Point blank, However, PSP5 is not freeware and this group is alt.comp.freeware. -- Regards from John Corliss People (eg. Andy Mabbett) whose messages to alt.comp.freeware I am filtering out and cannot see: alt.comp.freeware F.A.Q.: My 'favorite freeware' page: bambam 24.09.02 04:22. On Tue, 24 Sep 2002 03:29:08 -0700, RE: Re: Paint Shop Pro 5 is now free John Corliss wrote: >>I wouldn't have known about that offer if someone >>hadn't brought it to my attention.

AISI, this forum is a suitable >>place for such mentions. >>And the majority of this group says that you are wrong. If you are referring to your straw polls taken two years ago as the basis for your statement, that is not so.

Here's why: 1) Those polls are nearly two years old. Most of the people who 'voted' are not here anymore. They have been replaced with new participants.

Further, *you* conducted the polls and tabulated the results and happily found that they agreed with your strict position on the issues. 2) Judging from the comments in this thread alone, there is no overwhelming, or even apparent, consensus on this particular question; and in an un-moderated NG, an overwhelming consensus is the only feasible guideline. A 51%/49% consensus doesn't cut it since the 51% have no police-power (thankfully) to silence the other 49%. Only when there is an overwhelming consensus e.g. 60/40, 70/30, etc is a guideline effectively established by the moral persuasive power rather than the police-power of the NG. There are many here that consider free software available on a CD that comes with a magazine ON-topic and entirely appropriate to mention in this group. There is no overwhelming or even apparent consensus for excluding discussion or mention of this kind of software, hence the pedants here lack the moral persuasive power to impose their censorship.

This is because acceptance of censorship is naturally abhorrent to people in our culture (and maybe all cultures) and can only be accomplished with police power (which is thankfully lacking here) or moral persuasive power which is also lacking. Bottom line is free software on a CD that comes with a magazine is appropriate for discussion. -- Performing Arts in the Shoals Area Shoals Symphony Orchestra: Opera South: Vic Dura 24.09.02 05:44.

'Vic Dura' wrote in message news:0hl0pu4f9vjv3njgdd01l9b5d07gjs50hp@4ax.com. >>I don't come hear to read about what other people can get >>for free but I can't.

>>Would it be ok to post information about software that *you* can get >for free, but others can't? Since you obviously didn't read his posting, I'll repost the part that applies to your question: '[.] I also don't expect other people to be tremendously interested in software that I can get for free and they can't. So the narrow definition of Freeware serves a very utilitarian purpose. It helps us not waste each other's time!'

-- rhexis rhexis 24.09.02 06:04. 'Vic Dura' wrote in message news:4ml0pu81lgg3mj1t072kfkj28tbmmcti1p@4ax.com.

>2) Judging from the comments in this thread alone, there is no >overwhelming, or even apparent, consensus on this particular question; >and in an un-moderated NG, an overwhelming consensus is the only >feasible guideline. A 51%/49% consensus doesn't cut it since the 51% >have no police-power (thankfully) to silence the other 49%.

Were do you get these numbers? >This is because acceptance of censorship is >naturally abhorrent to people in our culture (and maybe all cultures) >and can only be accomplished with police power (which is thankfully >lacking here) or moral persuasive power which is also lacking.

You speak newspeak fluently. Here's your diploma. >Bottom line is free software on a CD that comes with a magazine is >appropriate for discussion. Let me get this straight. Something that looks like a 51%/49% consensus (your numbers) can NOT be used as an argument to stop this, but CAN be used as an argument to allow it? Does not compute.

-- rhexis rhexis 24.09.02 06:05. Point blank wrote: >>I think that when a quality program like PSP 5 temporarily becomes >>available with some magazine, albeit only in restricted regios, it is >>quite OK to make a one-time announcement in an [OT] labeled post.

>>>Agree with that. I've obtained some excellent 'free' programs from >magazine cover disks.

It's easy to miss them unless you browse the >news stands on a regular basis, so flagging quality programs up here >seems a good idea. >>I've been to Holland quite a few times (i'm from Northern Ireland btw, >and love your country) Well, that is a nice thing to say.:-) I have never been to your country but many Dutch people love it, well your green island, anyway. (I loved the BBC series of BallyK as well, hope that that does not offend you. ) >and know that most of the UK magazines are >widely available there. However, I thought most of the computer ones >did not include a free CD when sold outside UK. Have also noticed >this during trips to USA, Germany, France, Spain etc. I just checked, but this issue of PCFormat is in my bookshop, along with all the other magazines, including their CD's.

It may well have changed since your last visit, though. I cannot tell how it was, as I never took interest in them. All the info and programs I can download for free are already more than I can handle.:-) -- Regards, Sietse Fliege mad ATARI user alternate 24.09.02 08:48. John, old chap, I don't think anyone is listening to you anymore. PSP has been recommended time and time again in this NG without any problems except by you.:o) John Corliss wrote in message news. >point blank wrote: >>>>Nobody is being forced to give any 'personal details' in any registration >>>process. >>>>>This is true.

I doubt that the 'registration has anything to do with >>Jasc. Paint Shop Pro 5 does not ask for your name, serial number or >>anything else when you install it.(clipped) >>Point blank, >However, PSP5 is not freeware and this group is alt.comp.freeware. Mad ATARI user alternate 24.09.02 08:56. In news:f2Wj9.7429$571.731509@wards, GeoThermal babbled incoherently: >>Received the following reply from Jasc: >>'The only way version 5 would be available for download is if you >have a previously purchased copy. We are now at version 7, so any new >orders would be for this version. You can try an evaluation version >of 7 from our website.'

>>So doesn't look like it's going to freeware in the sense of the >group, but still a brilliant deal. I wonder what they would say if you asked them if the version they released on the magazine CD could be considered freeware? -- Jim Allison Usable Freeware - Randy H 24.09.02 09:35. 'Tiger' wrote in message news:Xns9292A7AAE20B0jefscrrcom@24.25.0.66. >'Randy H' wrote in >news:amns63$7h0kl$: >>>>>'Blinky the Shark' wrote in message >>news:amlt44029vj@enews4.newsguy.com.

>>>On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 21:00:45 -0400, Thane@Cawdor.Net wrote: >>>>>>But downloading it means using electricity to run the >>>>computer.so its not free even then is it? >>>>>>You're not the first person to make that extremely silly claim.

>>>>So electricity is free where you live? Are you in prison or are >>your parents paying for it? >>>What's wrong with the following statement? >>'This statement is false.' >>Any idea why it applies?

>>Probably not. So here's a basic explanation. There are subsets of >categories which defy logic (Russell's paradox). Since we know this, >we have to group our categories into practical subsets which allow >for us to function without everyone scratching their heads and going, >'huh?' .kinda like what you're doing now.

>>If you want to extrapolate the concept of 'free' for the category of >'manufactured items' as far as it goes, then you'll find that >*nothing* is free. That, of course is the point, NOTHING is free. So, bitching at someone that their definition of freeware is wrong and yours is right is moronic. We are both technically wrong. >>Given that this group exists only because computers and the internet >exists, there are some 'givens.' One such is that the concept of >'free' necessarily *excludes* those factors which are required to use >a computer.namely, a power source.

>True enough, but the cost of that power source is variable. So, increased use will result in increased cost. This is simply a question of whether the cost involved in obtaining freeware is material.

If your argument is that those costs are not material, then I would agree, but they still exist. This reminds me of an old joke: A minister was preaching a sermon titled 'The best things in life are free.' At the end of the sermon, they passed the collection plate and someone in the back yelled out 'If the best things in life are free, then why are you taking up a collection.' The minister replied 'We are like the water company, the water is free, but you have to pay to have it piped in to you.' Freeware is the same way. It is free but you almost always have to pay something (immaterial as it may be) to have it delivered to your computer.

From a purist point of view about the only software that is totally free is what comes on all those AOL cds we throw in the trash. If you want to form a moderated group where you can impose your definition of freeware, then have at it.

The originator of this thread posted with the best of intentions and was slammed mercilessly for simply being a nice guy. That type behavior leads to too much background noise. For that reason, I will end my participation in this discussion now and won't bother responding to the insults to my intelligence that have already been made will likely continue to be made simply because I have a different opinion. Jim @ UsableFreeware.com 24.09.02 10:00. In, John Corliss babbled incoherently: >>Posting non-freeware solutions in this group can, has and will >lead to protracted threads on non-freeware discussions.

This clutters >the group with extraneous diversions that reduce the effectiveness of >the group in general. I.e., if new people come here thinking that the >group is for the discussion of freeware, only to find that it has >degenerated into discussion of shareware, warez, commercial software, >non-freeware CDWare (in essence, not available to them as freeware >downloads on the internet), etc., they will move on. This newsgroup is a community, and as such, nobody will be able to dictate policy and have everyone agree. People are just too diverse, especially on something as vast as the big 'ol Internet. 'Extraneous diversions' is certainly what has happened here.

The 'Paint Shop Pro 5 is now free' subject line now encompasses a whopping 374 follow-up postings, probably more during the time it took me to write this! No amount of non-freeware/shareware/warez posters could have possibly caused this kind of horrible dilution of what this newsgroup is about: software that is freely available: FREEWARE.

My suggestion: those who don't agree with the various 'Freeware' iterations can post a follow-up message with the words '[Adware]', '[CDWare]', etc. Added into the subject. As long as people reply into the new subject thread, the more militant users can easily filter out these posts, much like you can do with '[OT]' in the subject. For example, the PSP5 posting could have had a follow-up that turned the subject line to 'Re: Paint Shop Pro 5 is now free [CDWare]' by HdJ within an hour of the original posting. PLEASE NOTE that the subject line addition does not infer that these iterations are or are not Freeware -- it simply allows those who have a, um, more refined view to filter out those postings.to see only what they want to see in this newsgroup (some are already doing this for certain posters). I'm sure if we do this there will be a lot less 'dilution'.

Can't we all just.get along? Not that I expect anyone will follow my suggestion, mind you, but it was nice to get this off my chest. Thanks for 'listening'.:~) -- Jim Allison Usable Freeware - Boomer 24.09.02 10:54.

John Corliss wrote in message news:3D904192.38A2E608@ccountry.net. >Point blank, >However, PSP5 is not freeware and this group is alt.comp.freeware. >>-- >Regards from John Corliss John Corliss wrote in message news:3D8BA25B.58193A56@ccountry.net. >I have version 4 [of Paint Shop Pro] on my computer and would like to upgrade to 5. Do you have a link? >>-- >Regards from John Corliss >People (eg.

Andy Mabbett) whose messages to alt.comp.freeware I am filtering out and >cannot see: >>alt.comp.freeware F.A.Q.: >My 'favorite freeware' page: mad ATARI user alternate 24.09.02 12:15. So, what you are saying is if SimTel offered its freeware collection (or if NoNags or Moochers) minus the # of authors who do not wish to be included on a CD compilation, the software is no longer freeware? Am I missing something? One, the medium it is installed from (either from the CD or from the net) does not dictate whether or not it is freeware, and, duh, if you haven't realised it also helps the authors of said programs spread the word about the programs they right, thus freeing up any advertising costs that they might incure.

Nothing in this world is totally free. Certainly it costs the authors time & money to develop the freeware we so enjoy. 'rhexis' wrote in message news. Mad ATARI user alternate 25.09.02 12:09. In message, Uncle Fred writes >When you've been here for as many years as John, or even I, >perhaps your opinion will count for something. But not with me. Do please tell us why the opinion of someone who has been here for less time than that counts for nothing; what period is deemed the minimum, and why.

>Everything I see from you has the earmarks of someone only interested >in destroying the effectiveness of the group and attacking Mr. >The only people I've noticed supporting your position are people with >names I don't recognize. You claim to be a regular, here, but don't recognise my name?

>I know you're good at doing what you do, but as one who has >benefited from participating in this group for a number of years, I can >tell you that the standing definition of Freeware has been tested over >time and it's a very real part of why this newsgroup is as useful as it >is. *A* definition may have been tested; but none has achieved universal acceptance. >Another very real asset to this group is the collection of generous >people who offer their wisdom and experience to help others, and John >Corliss is far from the least of those. >John has *earned* out respect with years of contributions to >the group.

You, I don't even know. 'our respect'? >>>>Bottom line is free software on a CD that comes with a magazine is >>appropriate for discussion. >>>>Untrue. It's Off-Topic by our definition of 'Freeware.' Whose definition? [.] >If you come along with a new >idea, then form your own group and see if anyone is interested.

Don't >try to destroy an already established, well functioning group with this >nonsense. Your only purpose seems to be to make trouble. If you have >nothing to contribute, go away. End of Usenet predicted, Film at eleven.

-- Andy Mabbett Sign Amnesty International's petition - stop the USA from violating International Law by obtaining war crime impunity agreements: Andy Mabbett 05.10.02 09:46. In message, Uncle Fred writes >The definition of 'Freeware' has been decided over time >by the dedicated and respected members of this group, of which you >are not one. Respected by whom?

Who gets to say whose opinions are respected? [.] >Who made you owner of the newsgroup? Who made you,? >There has been no accurate count. Then there can be no valid claims that a majority support anything.

>The people supporting a >change are all new names to me. For all I know you could be one >person spoofing different email addresses. *One Person* with far >too much time on their hands.

Have you caught Corliss' paranoia? >The people supporting the existing >definitions and traditions of this group have been here for years. As have people opposing them.

[snip further ill-thought-out ranting] -- Andy Mabbett Sign Amnesty International's petition - stop the USA from violating International Law by obtaining war crime impunity agreements: Andy Mabbett 05.10.02 09:42. In message, Blinky the Shark writes >Are you calling the person who handled votes in this group deceitful, a >liar, a crook, or what, exactly? He's certainly the first two; some of his actions would certainly have been illegal in the jurisdiction from which I post, but I'm not familiar enough with his local laws to assert the latter. -- Andy Mabbett Sign Amnesty International's petition - stop the USA from violating International Law by obtaining war crime impunity agreements: Andy Mabbett 05.10.02 09:47. In message, Paragon writes [posted re-formatted correctly] >'Andy Mabbett' wrote in message >>Sign Amnesty International's petition - stop the USA from violating >>International Law by obtaining war crime impunity agreements: >>>Just LOVE your tag line. Actually, it's a 'sig' (short for signature file). You'll note that it's not broken.

>so that lurkers from two-bit has-been nations Which 'two-bit has been nations' would they be? >can rattle their jealousies Which 'jealousies' would they be?

Taking the moral lead. >Too bad such an >Amnesty International wasn't in place when U.K. Might was murdering all >their >colonials in India, Ireland, Scotland, Singapore, Aussieland, Zedderland, >southern Africa, etc etc etc etc I think you'll find that the UK didn't colonise Scotland or Ireland, for a start. It is indeed 'too bad' that Amnesty wasn't around much earlier, but I hardly see how that has any relevance to the USA's ongoing attempts to excuse itself from responsibility for any of it or its agents future wrong- doings.

>==================================================== >>>--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (). >Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/02 >>Yes, I'm sure we all really wanted to know that. -- Andy Mabbett Sign Amnesty International's petition - stop the USA from violating International Law by obtaining war crime impunity agreements: Andy Mabbett 05.10.02 09:56. In article, says. >In message, Uncle Fred >writes >>>The definition of 'Freeware' has been decided over time >>by the dedicated and respected members of this group, of which you >>are not one.

>>Respected by whom? Who gets to say whose opinions are respected?

Why do >they? >What's your problem? >Have you caught Corliss' paranoia?

>When it comes to paranoia, I like to think I'm way ahead of Mr. Corliss >>The people supporting the existing >>definitions and traditions of this group have been here for years. >>As have people opposing them. >Then they've been awfully quiet. I've heard a few peeps now & then, but not from anybody with credibility.

-- With Regards Fred W. Please remove *four* F's to reply by email.

Uncle Fred 06.10.02 13:53. In article, says. >In message, Uncle Fred >writes >>When you've been here for as many years as John, or even I, >>perhaps your opinion will count for something. But not with me. >>Do please tell us why the opinion of someone who has been here for less >time than that counts for nothing; what period is deemed the minimum, >and why. >I was responding to a troll. >>Everything I see from you has the earmarks of someone only interested >>in destroying the effectiveness of the group and attacking Mr.

>>The only people I've noticed supporting your position are people with >>names I don't recognize. >>You claim to be a regular, here, but don't recognise my name?

>Yes I do recognise your name, but not the name of the person I was responding to. >>I know you're good at doing what you do, but as one who has >>benefited from participating in this group for a number of years, I can >>tell you that the standing definition of Freeware has been tested over >>time and it's a very real part of why this newsgroup is as useful as it >>is. >>*A* definition may have been tested; but none has achieved universal >acceptance.

>No definition will achieve *universal* acceptance. >>Another very real asset to this group is the collection of generous >>people who offer their wisdom and experience to help others, and John >>Corliss is far from the least of those. >>John has *earned* out respect with years of contributions to >>the group. You, I don't even know. >>'our respect'? >>>>>>Bottom line is free software on a CD that comes with a magazine is >>>appropriate for discussion. >>>>>>>Untrue.

It's Off-Topic by our definition of 'Freeware.' >>Whose definition?

>The newsgroup's definition. >[.] >>If you come along with a new >>idea, then form your own group and see if anyone is interested.

Don't >>try to destroy an already established, well functioning group with this >>nonsense. Your only purpose seems to be to make trouble.

If you have >>nothing to contribute, go away. >>>End of Usenet predicted, Film at eleven. >Nothing is forever.

-- With Regards Fred W. Please remove *four* F's to reply by email. Uncle Fred 06.10.02 14:02. In article, says.

>In message, Paragon >writes >>[posted re-formatted correctly] >>>'Andy Mabbett' wrote in message >>>>Sign Amnesty International's petition - stop the USA from violating >>>International Law by obtaining war crime impunity agreements: >>>>>>>Just LOVE your tag line. >>Actually, it's a 'sig' (short for signature file).

You'll note that it's >not broken. >I used to be a member of Amnesty International and quit when I felt they were ignoring American atrocities as well as carrying out American foreign policy in criticizing communist governments too harshly. If they now have decided to oppose American Imperialism, that's definitely a step in the right direction.

-- With Regards Fred W. Please remove *four* F's to reply by email. Andy Mabbett 12.10.02 10:28.

In message, Uncle Fred writes >>Respected by whom? Who gets to say whose opinions are respected? Why do >>they? >What's your problem?

Lame- brainers who try to speak for me, for one. >>>Have you caught Corliss' paranoia? >>>When it comes to paranoia, I like to think I'm way ahead of >Mr. Corliss You poor thing. >>>The people supporting the existing >>>definitions and traditions of this group have been here for years. >>>>As have people opposing them.

>>>Then they've been awfully quiet. I've heard a few peeps now >& then, but not from anybody with credibility. Unplug your ears, then. -- Andy Mabbett Sign Amnesty International's petition - stop the USA from violating International Law by obtaining war crime impunity agreements: Andy Mabbett 12.10.02 10:27. In message, Uncle Fred writes >>Do please tell us why the opinion of someone who has been here for less >>time than that counts for nothing; what period is deemed the minimum, >>and why. >>>I was responding to a troll. Even if you were, that does not answer my question.

>>>The only people I've noticed supporting your position are people with >>>names I don't recognize. >>>>You claim to be a regular, here, but don't recognise my name? >>>Yes I do recognise your name, but not the name of the person >I was responding to. Then you're either very, very unobservant, or your earlier comment was a lie.

>>>I know you're good at doing what you do, but as one who has >>>benefited from participating in this group for a number of years, I can >>>tell you that the standing definition of Freeware has been tested over >>>time and it's a very real part of why this newsgroup is as useful as it >>>is. >>>>*A* definition may have been tested; but none has achieved universal >>acceptance. >>>No definition will achieve *universal* acceptance. >>>John has *earned* out respect with years of contributions to >>>the group. You, I don't even know. >>>>'our respect'? >>>Oh dry up.

Certainly not. Whose respect? >>>It's Off-Topic by our definition of 'Freeware.' >>>>Whose definition? >>>The newsgroup's definition. 'the newsgroup' has none. -- Andy Mabbett Sign Amnesty International's petition - stop the USA from violating International Law by obtaining war crime impunity agreements: Anthony Sullivan 08.10.02 20:17.

Yes, I've got it-great-uses it for product visuals wrote in message news:3d8f64@news.inu.net. >>>No, it doesn't. As >>CDware-not-also-available-for-download, it isn't freeware, and your >>little scheme no more excuses this than if one tried to sell MS Word in >>here *by simply not saying 'freeware'*, as you are suggesting. Not >>*saying* 'freeware' doesn't change that fact at all -- it's still >>nonfreeware in a freeware group. >>But you actually bought the retail version. Others bought a magazine >and got the great program to boot.

>>These are somehow the same? >>>>>-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- >- The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers!